Identifying different front sump sealing

[Europa88]

Hi all,

I have a later type 701M engine block with the later cork seal to sump. However some time ago I bought a baffled sump from QED for a TC block, but my local mechanic (ex Oselli Engineering) tells me it has a different seal arrangement. He thinks its a crossflow 711M and has bought the gaskets from Burtons and made it fit! So.. sadly it keeps leaking no matter what we do!
I think when I bought the sump (unfortunately 15 yrs ago and not used) it was sold to me as a TC/BDA applicable baffled sump.

So my question is...is there a difference between a 701M and 711M seal to sump? I know different seals are used but should a 711M seal mate to a 701m block successfully?
Apologies for the long winded explanation

[promotor]

Hi all,

I have a later type 701M engine block with the later cork seal to sump. However some time ago I bought a baffled sump from QED for a TC block, but my local mechanic (ex Oselli Engineering) tells me it has a different seal arrangement. He thinks its a crossflow 711M and has bought the gaskets from Burtons and made it fit! So.. sadly it keeps leaking no matter what we do!
I think when I bought the sump (unfortunately 15 yrs ago and not used) it was sold to me as a TC/BDA applicable baffled sump.

So my question is...is there a difference between a 701M and 711M seal to sump? I know different seals are used but should a 711M seal mate to a 701m block successfully?
Apologies for the long winded explanation

If it's a lip seal sump it will accept cork or rubber gaskets. The sump isn't the important part in the equation - it's the front and rear seal carriers - some have different width seal grooves - the twincam front cover uses a narrow seal across the whole range of years so to keep things simple you should use the rear seal carrier with a narrow seal groove to match. Mixing and matching can work but is not worth it if for nothing else than only having to buy one sump gasket set rather than two sets to get the parts needed. You may also need to trim the long cork gaskets depending on which set you buy and what seal carriers you have.

A photo of what you have would make it a lot easier to describe what's needed for your specific situation.

To clarify, the front bowl sump as found in Elan's was also used in early and late mk2 cortina's with both the early narrow and the later wide seal carriers without issue. The sumps weren't any different.

[joe7]

I have a later type sump, it has the larger rear seal flange which uses a wider rear seal carrier for the sump and a wider lip seal for the crank. I think that this setup uses a black rubber seal for the carrier to sump. Don't know if these can be used on the early sump or vice versa without leaking.

[Europa88]

Hi all,

I have a later type 701M engine block with the later cork seal to sump. However some time ago I bought a baffled sump from QED for a TC block, but my local mechanic (ex Oselli Engineering) tells me it has a different seal arrangement. He thinks its a crossflow 711M and has bought the gaskets from Burtons and made it fit! So.. sadly it keeps leaking no matter what we do!
I think when I bought the sump (unfortunately 15 yrs ago and not used) it was sold to me as a TC/BDA applicable baffled sump.

So my question is...is there a difference between a 701M and 711M seal to sump? I know different seals are used but should a 711M seal mate to a 701m block successfully?
Apologies for the long winded explanation

If it's a lip seal sump it will accept cork or rubber gaskets. The sump isn't the important part in the equation - it's the front and rear seal carriers - some have different width seal grooves - the twincam front cover uses a narrow seal across the whole range of years so to keep things simple you should use the rear seal carrier with a narrow seal groove to match. Mixing and matching can work but is not worth it if for nothing else than only having to buy one sump gasket set rather than two sets to get the parts needed. You may also need to trim the long cork gaskets depending on which set you buy and what seal carriers you have.

A photo of what you have would make it a lot easier to describe what's needed for your specific situation.

To clarify, the front bowl sump as found in Elan's was also used in early and late mk2 cortina's with both the early narrow and the later wide seal carriers without issue. The sumps weren't any different.

Thanks for the input, that makes it clearer. Unfortunately the sump and engine are in situ and to complicate things further they are in a Europa! So difficult to get an image to post.

However as the leak appears from the front seal and all TC's are narrow groove in the front cover, I'm thinking that my guy has used a rubber 711M gasket and if the twink front cover accepts this gasket, I shouldn't have an issue!
Ok I will have to inspect further. I only have a single lock up garage and when I was younger this posed no issues...Now at 63 its a lot harder to crawl under the car

[Europa88]

I have a later type sump, it has the larger rear seal flange which uses a wider rear seal carrier for the sump and a wider lip seal for the crank. I think that this setup uses a black rubber seal for the carrier to sump. Don't know if these can be used on the early sump or vice versa without leaking.

Yes that's my issue...I think the fabricated sump requires a large 711M seal and I have the narrow grooved twink front cover...

[Billmack]

You will just have to take the sump off, look all the pieces over carefully and use what fits. I think some of the gasket sets are made up for the cast aluminum dry sump pans. In any case trim the pieces carefully and use some sealant where the pieces go together. Inspect the sump carefully for cracks. Its not unheard of to find a split where you are seeing the leakage. I use Yamabond, Threebond or ultra gray sparingly all over with a little extra blob at the seams. Look carefully at how those are meant to go together. Hard to keep everything lined up when doing the job in situ.

[Europa88]

So...I found the leak.

After putting the car on stands and armed with torch and inspection lamp it has nothing to do with lip seal arrangement. Its being pushed out the dipstick tube and coincides with me fitting a small catch can in the breather circuit. I have bypassed the catch can, cleaned off the oil and waiting for a cool down to check my theory of increased crankcase pressure due to a cheap copy of a Mishimoto can. I could be clutching at straws here but as the oil level hasn't changed and its been dry up to the install!
Comments most welcome.

[mbell]

That's a very common issue. The Twink needs a good crank case breather setup. If not leaks out of dip stick and oil filler caps are common, or just about any where.

Could also be sign that there is a lot of blow by, either worn engine or rings that haven't bedded in well.

[Europa88]

OK so now I have removed the catch can from the breather circuit, there is no more emptying of sump via the dipstick tube.

The bronze filter in the fake can is a compacted disc of very small micro size brass balls and had virtually no flow!
To be fair this catch can wasn't advertised as a Mishimoto can and at £30 instead of £160 I took a chance.

Also (Apart from the fake filter) The can is well constructed and does not feel cheap.

Caveat Emptor