Sealants and thread locker water pump and timing chest

[skelteanema]

Hi all,

I have successfully removed the engine and disassembled the timing chests and removed the water pump. Luckily everything went smoothly, and I had no difficult with getting front cover off and water pump out. I waited until I had everything apart and cleaned up before ordering parts in case there was something I had overlooked as it gets costly shipping from UK or USA to NZ. The parts arrived yesterday and I am ready to start re-assembly. The questions I have is around sealants and threadlockers.

1. We don't have Wellseal locally, but we do have Permatex products and some Loctite products. What equivalent Permatex/Loctite products can I use to replace Wellseal? I think I read that the Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket Sealant Liquid, No. 3 was a suitable replacement (#80019). Is that correct?

2. What Permatex/Loctite RTV sealant should I use for around the water pump seals, o-rings and the front to rear cover seal? Pan seal etc. It would need to be an oil-resistant product. I can get Loctite 587 BLUE MAX, or some Permatex product?

3. Finally what threadlocker should I use? I think it is the Permatex Threadlocker - Medium Strength, Blue. I can also get Loctite 243?

When sealing the timing chest back cover. Do you put a bead of sealant around the edge of the gasket on each side, or is it more liberally coated on the gasket?

The Mile Wilkins Twink book suggests putting a bead of RTV around the mating faces of the front an rear covers by the water pump impeller housing (as well as the o-rings). My car did not appear to have RTV on these mating faces, but did on the o-rings. Is this normal practice?

Thanks,

Skelte

[alan.barker]

Imho
i do not use thread locker(loctite) on ANY threads that go into ALLOY.
On my last +2S130 i had a very big problem because a previous owner had put "Loctite" on the Timing Chain Quadrant Pivot Bolt. When i dismantled the Pivot Bolt not Knowing he had put "Loctite" on the thread the thread got stripped out the Head I had to fit a Helicoil Insert after.
If i had known there was "Loctite" i would have warmed up the Head to destroy "Loctite".
Alan

[elans3]

Agree entirely as above, no thread locking stuff on bolts going into alloy, not required.
My sealant of choice for around the engine & ancilliaries is Permatex Ultra-Grey. Available on Ebay, whenever I've used it (started 5 years ago after recommendation), I've had no leaks on 2 Alfa Twincam engines.
Really great stuff Good but more expensive than others.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Permatex-821 ... SwZDpfDKiC

[2cams70]

1. We don't have Wellseal locally, but we do have Permatex products and some Loctite products. What equivalent Permatex/Loctite products can I use to replace Wellseal? I think I read that the Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket Sealant Liquid, No. 3 was a suitable replacement (#80019). Is that correct?

2. What Permatex/Loctite RTV sealant should I use for around the water pump seals, o-rings and the front to rear cover seal? Pan seal etc. It would need to be an oil-resistant product. I can get Loctite 587 BLUE MAX, or some Permatex product?

3. Finally what threadlocker should I use? I think it is the Permatex Threadlocker - Medium Strength, Blue. I can also get Loctite 243?

When sealing the timing chest back cover. Do you put a bead of sealant around the edge of the gasket on each side, or is it more liberally coated on the gasket?

Whilst everyone seems to have their own opinions about sealants and they are probably all valid this is what I recommend:

If the the housings are in good condition with little corrosion no RTV sealant is required around the water pump "o-rings". If you are seeking a little further reassurance however use some Permatex water pump and thermostat housing RTV in this area. (has higher glycol resistance than regular RTV). Minimal amount only

For the gasket between the backplate and block use no sealant. The off the shelf gasket typically supplied for this location is very thin and uses cheap quality paper. Junk it and cut your own using slightly thicker better quality paper.

For the front cover to backplate joint use Threebond 1215 RTV. This is excellent stuff with a long tack free time that allows a long time for correct positioning of components during assembly. It's what Japanese OEMs use. Sticks really well and is flexible. Make sure you use only a very small amount. As per directions on the packet only a 2mm wide bead is required. Use only that amount and you will get only a very small amount extruded externally from the joint.

For the timing cover to head cork gasket. Very thin smear of 1215 on both sides. Fit the cylinder head and finger tighten head and the three timing cover to head bolts. Allow time overnight for the 1215 to cure before fully torqueing these bolts. If you tighten these bolts before the silicone properly cures the cork gasket will slip on the silicone when it compresses and extrude which is what you don't want.

Loctite threadlocker only on the single bolt that secures the backplate to the block (Loctite 243) and on the set screws securing the chain tensioner pad to the inside of the cover (Loctite 222). Replace the original slotted set screws with hex headed ones as this makes installation and removal much easier. Set screws from QED are hex headed and the correct length. Burtons supply ones that are too short. The Loctite 222 low strength threadlocker prevents oil leakage down the threads.

Well worth also having a mandrel made up so you can correctly centre the timing cover front oil seal opening around the crankshaft nose.

[alan.barker]

Imho around the Water Pump "o" rings i put some Silicone because of the drilling if the Bearing is leaking. Instead of the little leak going outside it will go down into the Sump Oil
Alan

[Esprit2]

Skelte,
To your question about an alternative for Wellseal...

Permatex Aviation Form-a-Gasket is a very close approximation of Wellseal, and can be used interchangeably.

A companion product, Permatex Super 300 Form-a-Gasket is very similar, but thicker... more viscous. I have both, but use "Aviation" most of the time.

There are other Permatex products that also include "Form-a-Gasket" in their names, but they are not like Wellseal. Don't use them where Wellseal is called for.

*~*~*~*
Some have posted praise for silicone RTV (Room Temperature Vulcanizing). I'm not in that camp, and I avoid the use of RTV in engines except where it's specifically needed (which is a very short list). When you tighten the joint, any RTV that oozes out can be easily wiped off. However, for all the ooze on the outside, you can bet there's a similar amount on the inside where it can't be wiped off. The ooze cures into little rubber beads that are connected to the joint line by the thinnest of rubber films. With engine vibration over time, the beads break off and go into the interior of the engine. They're soft and don't do any direct damage, but they can block lubrication. I've opened way too many engines only to find the oil pick-up screen way too blocked by little beads or RTV.

There are a small handful of applications where I relent and use RTV... in which case Permatex Ultra Gray is very good (and not all the 'Ultra' RTVs are created equal), as is Three Bond. Other than those few apps, I do not use silicone in engines, and I recommend that you don't either.

If you choose to use a silicone sealant, definitely use an automotive product. Do 'NOT' use a household/ bath/ aquarium grade of silicone in any engine. They're not formulated for the job.

Regards,
Tim Engel

[2cams70]

There are a small handful of applications where I relent and use RTV... in which case Permatex Ultra Gray is very good (and not all the 'Ultra' RTVs are created equal), as is Three Bond. Other than those few apps, I do not use silicone in engines, and I recommend that you don't either.

The key with RTV is using the correct amount and the correct grade. Threebond is what my OEM uses at the factory in heavy duty truck engines. No issues even after 500,000+ km.

[Donels]

Do a search on engine sealants and there is an excellent answer written by Rohan.

[Sploder90]

Imho
i do not use thread locker(loctite) on ANY threads that go into ALLOY.
On my last +2S130 i had a very big problem because a previous owner had put "Loctite" on the Timing Chain Quadrant Pivot Bolt. When i dismantled the Pivot Bolt not Knowing he had put "Loctite" on the thread the thread got stripped out the Head I had to fit a Helicoil Insert after.
If i had known there was "Loctite" i would have warmed up the Head to destroy "Loctite".
Alan

Had similar with my tensioner

Did the same as Alan and ended up having to put an insert in being very careful to line it up squarely.