Dreaded oil and coolant water mix! guidance required please

[gazzamuffin]

Hi all,

Well one step forward two steps back it would seem.

since rebuilding the engine as part of a full car rebuild i have run the engine 3 - 4 times while on the drive. However last weekend I took the car out on the road around the block twice to give it its first run.

in doing so the cooling fan didnt kick in and the temp reached 100 - 105C.

after it cooled down i took off the oil filler cap from the cam cover to find the dreaded milky oil inside

I understand that this could mean a problem with the cylinder head gasket or worse a cracked cylinder head.

but can anyone give some advice as to what i should eliminate first and the sequence of checking things?

thanks

Gazzamuffin

[ardee_selby]

Hi all,

Well one step forward two steps back it would seem.

since rebuilding the engine as part of a full car rebuild i have run the engine 3 - 4 times while on the drive. However last weekend I took the car out on the road around the block twice to give it its first run.

in doing so the cooling fan didnt kick in and the temp reached 100 - 105C.

after it cooled down i took off the oil filler cap from the cam cover to find the dreaded milky oil inside

I understand that this could mean a problem with the cylinder head gasket or worse a cracked cylinder head.

but can anyone give some advice as to what i should eliminate first and the sequence of checking things?

thanks

Gazzamuffin

Maybe condensate/emulsion after the re-build and a few low temp "runs" on the drive???

Some questions:

Q.1 - Was the head torque checked & if necessary re-torqued after the initial running?
Q.2 - Has water level dropped significantly?
Q.3 - Any sign of "mayo" on the dipstick?
Q.4 - Any mis-firing at all?

Richard

[gazzamuffin]

Hi all,

Well one step forward two steps back it would seem.

since rebuilding the engine as part of a full car rebuild i have run the engine 3 - 4 times while on the drive. However last weekend I took the car out on the road around the block twice to give it its first run.

in doing so the cooling fan didnt kick in and the temp reached 100 - 105C.

after it cooled down i took off the oil filler cap from the cam cover to find the dreaded milky oil inside

I understand that this could mean a problem with the cylinder head gasket or worse a cracked cylinder head.

but can anyone give some advice as to what i should eliminate first and the sequence of checking things?

thanks

Gazzamuffin

Maybe condensate after the re-build and a few low temp "runs" on the drive???

Some questions:

Q.1 - Was the head torque checked & if necessary re-torqued after the initial running?
Q.2 - Has water level dropped significantly?
Q.3 - Any sign of "mayo" on the dipstick?
Q.4 - Any mis-firing at all?

Richard

Hi RIchard!

Thanks for the reply, in answwr to your Q's
Q.1 head torque was check after intitial build, but no re-torqued after initial running
Q.2 water level dropped out of visible area in top of radiator, topped up but didnt need much
Q.3 oil on dipstick was clear
Q.4 Mis-firing, erm the engine has an intermittent "popping" more so at low revs

Thanks for the concise help!

I look forward to your comments !

Gazzamuffin

[robertverhey]

I suggest a compression test first and then a cooling system pressure test (with spark plugs out) to isolate the fault. Search on "stant"

Robert

[CBUEB1771]

Maybe condensate/emulsion after the re-build and a few low temp "runs" on the drive???

I agree that there may be nothing wrong at all. What was the ambient temperature before starting up? A bit of blow-by past the rings (which have not bedded yet) will cause water vapor to condense in the crankcase and mix with oil. It can take some time of running at normal temperature to drive the water condensate out of the oil. Still, perform all of the recommended checks but don't panic yet.

[AHM]

in doing so the cooling fan didnt kick in and the temp reached 100 - 105C.

I agree with the other posts, go through what has been suggested.

With a newly rebuilt engine there is a tendency to assume the worst. Looking at this logically.

Is the fan switch in the top of the radiator? (Where there is air)

Do you have the correct radiator cap and the recuperater bottle? (If not there will always be air)

Have you tested the fan for correct operation?

100-105 oC is not drastic.

Simon

[Tonyw]

Gazzamuffin,

After checking the normal things, remove the rocker cover and prwessurise the cooling system, look down inside the front cover where the water pump jouns the front cover and see if you can see water leaking past the "o" rings, I have just had exactly the same problem, the "o" rings I bought from a reputable parts supplier were .005" thinner than those supplied by the Elan Factory. This solved my problem so perhaps it could yours. When I viewed the leak it was very slight. Hope this helps although not an easy fix, I took the engine out to fix mine.

Tonyw

[elansprint71]

Maybe condensate/emulsion after the re-build and a few low temp "runs" on the drive???

I agree that there may be nothing wrong at all. What was the ambient temperature before starting up? A bit of blow-by past the rings (which have not bedded yet) will cause water vapor to condense in the crankcase and mix with oil. It can take some time of running at normal temperature to drive the water condensate out of the oil. Still, perform all of the recommended checks but don't panic yet.

I went thro' this panic after putting my engine together; kind folks on here suggested a dozen things which might be wrong, then someone posted that he had exactly the same thing after rebuilding a VW Beetle air-cooled engine! That put it in perspective and it turned out it was just condensation- a surprising amount of condensation too!

[gazzamuffin]

Maybe condensate/emulsion after the re-build and a few low temp "runs" on the drive???

I agree that there may be nothing wrong at all. What was the ambient temperature before starting up? A bit of blow-by past the rings (which have not bedded yet) will cause water vapor to condense in the crankcase and mix with oil. It can take some time of running at normal temperature to drive the water condensate out of the oil. Still, perform all of the recommended checks but don't panic yet.

Hi Elansprint 71, the ambient temp was around 8-10 degrees, (a pretty cool day!)

[gazzamuffin]

in doing so the cooling fan didnt kick in and the temp reached 100 - 105C.

I agree with the other posts, go through what has been suggested.

With a newly rebuilt engine there is a tendency to assume the worst. Looking at this logically.

Is the fan switch in the top of the radiator? (Where there is air)

Do you have the correct radiator cap and the recuperater bottle? (If not there will always be air)

Have you tested the fan for correct operation?

100-105 oC is not drastic.

Simon

Hi AHM, the cooling fan is a new Kenlow model, It has been operating properly (kicking in at 70C) so I think I have a new issue with it.

The the thermostat probe is positioned at the top of the radiator just below the return pipe from the engine it passes through the radiator fins as instructed by Kenlow

Its comforting to know 100-105 is not drastic, thanks again!

[gazzamuffin]

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions so far, I will be working in it this weekend so will keep you informed of the progress

Gazzamuffin

[tcsoar]

Gazza,

I have just had the same panic as you. Run the engine up for the first time after rebuild about six weeks ago, on the drive like you. Run it up several times since to adjust timing and carbs etc., but had not actually had taken the car out on the road. I found mayo on the underside of the oil cap after the first engine run and panicked. The oil on the dipstick was clean as was yours and I had no serious loss of water.
I also had to check the cam clearances in between engine runs and found no evidence under the cam cover of oil and water mixing, this put my mind at rest initially. It was only when I eventually got to take it out on the road to get an MOT and did a round trip of 18 miles and then checked the oil cap that I felt better, no mayo.

So for me to read your story and the other guys experiences fits my experience exactly, hopefully you will have the same outcome, until then just keep checking and rechecking and give the car a good long road run.

Chris.

[ardee_selby]

Hi RIchard!

Thanks for the reply, in answwr to your Q's
Q.1 head torque was check after intitial build, but no re-torqued after initial running
Q.2 water level dropped out of visible area in top of radiator, topped up but didnt need much
Q.3 oil on dipstick was clear
Q.4 Mis-firing, erm the engine has an intermittent "popping" more so at low revs

Thanks for the concise help!

I look forward to your comments ! Gazzamuffin

Hi Gazza,

"Concise help" ?? Concise questions maybe...that's the easy part!

But nothing above are a portent of doom...comments from others bear that out.

Nothing to add except that whilst retorqueing has been said (on here) to be unnecessary, or shutting the stable door, it is part of the Lotus first service schedule (IIRC @ 500 miles?) Other than that did you measure the amount of coolant you were able to get into the system? I haven't had that problem but there quite a few who have had a shortfall...

Good luck - Richard

[Allison]

Hi Gazza, a bit late to the party - apologies!. If the dipstick has clear oil then there's nothing wrong. I replaced a water pump and as said above something went wrong with the seals and the dipstick and sump were like mushroom soup. If all you have is a little suggestion on the oil filler cap - don't worry - life's too short!
Peter

[JJDraper]

Ditto all previous posts - serious water/oil mix will be obvious after a while. Oil level may appear to rise if there is a water to oil leak, as the water enters the sump. Mushroom soup is a good description of the serious oil/water mix from a blown head gasket - see pic. My +2 gets white emulsion on the oil cap in winter, unless I take it for a good blast!

A bit too early to take it apart again. If the problem persists, get a new cam box gasket ready and have a closer inspection as per my pic. 120DegC is more of a problem, but does happen for short periods with no ill effects ... Oil can go the other way, so check the rad cap for emulsion as well.

Jeremy