Odd starting issues

[worzel]

Hi

I've posted an enquiry about this a couple of weeks ago and have since tried a few ideas but not yet managed to track down the cause(s) of the glitch. To recap- leaving the car for a few days the engine proves difficult to turn over- fortunately it fires quite easily so even at low cranking speeds it does get going. Running it for a few minutes (literally- maybe 2 at most) and turning off if I then leave it for say an hour (to see if it's temp related) on trying to restart it turns over rapidly as normal.

Battery is relatively new and a check reveals it is holding its charge ok.
All leads to battery/starter/earths have been checked/doublechecked/cleaned and vaselined.
Timings (ignition and valve) are correct.
As a precaution I recently had the starter overhauled- even though off the car it operated perfectly ok.
I also changed the solenoid- to no obvious gain.
Long shot- the car uses an alloy bellhousing- is it possible/likely that there is a resistance build up so that the starter mounting bolts are not earthing the starter properly? Unfortunately I can't recall when the problem started because for a few years I didn't use it regularly so it didn't matter too much and can't say for certain that it followed the fitting of the bellhousing. As an aside are the 5 speed plus 2 models fitted with a separate earth to the starter since they also use an alloy bellhousing?

Regards

John





Engine is std sprint with no mods.

Now-

[rgh0]

Had a similar problem with an XJ6 Jag. In the end I replaced the starter motor with a modern high torque gear reduction motor.

I concluded the orginal starter was marginal on torque even after a rebuild and doing all the things you had done and the increased torque required to turn over a stone cold engine after oil had drained over a couple of days was enough to make it struggle.

regards
Rohan

[ardee_selby]

Hi John,

Can only offer the following: Had same symptoms after rebuild. Checked (but didn't test) all earth points & fixings. They all appeared sound.

However, after a cold start (with it turning over very slowly) I felt all the earth points. Found the main battery earth point in the boot was bl**dy hot. It wasn't loose & had been a totally clean assembly onto a new frame.

After I sorted out blistered fingers, I took it apart & cleaned off all the copperslip I'd used on assembly. All was well after that. I thought the copper content would have reduced resistance, but apparently not.

Cheers - rd

[Frank Howard]

Long shot- the car uses an alloy bellhousing- is it possible/likely that there is a resistance build up so that the starter mounting bolts are not earthing the starter properly?

John,

I can guarantee it's not the alloy bellhousing as aluminum is an excellent conductor. The underground feed from my house to my detached garage is aluminum wire as are most telephone pole power cables. I tend to agree with Rohan that it's a bad starter. If not, I'm leaning toward rd that it's a bad ground. You could always eliminate the battery as the culprit by substituting another. Let us know what you find out.

[worzel]

Hmmm-

Thanks for the replies so far.

The starter- although it's the original type (ie not the more modern variant) it's never been a problem to turn over the engine.

The odd thing is that off the car it spins like crazy so I thought it would be either an earth issue or a fault in supply. I have however removed all the relevant leads, cleaned then till bright, ditto the mounting points, covered them in vaseline and bolted tight.

The battery earth has been re-routed years ago to one of the suspension towers and the engine earth no longer picks up at the engine mounting but instead is taken from the block by the head to the front suspension tower.

I'll have to go back over everything .

Regards

John

[alan71]

I know you have checked all the connections but I would still recommend measuring the voltage drop from the battery terminal to the starter with the starter running, both positive and negative. Any cheap multi meter will do, you don?t need to know exactly to a fraction of a mV.
If you end up needing a new starter the new gear reduction ones are brilliant.

Alan.

[Allison]

John,

it sounds like one of those things that will fix as easily and oddly as it arrives. We had the same issue with an Elan - changed starter and battery but eventually it was back to the earthing. You say the battery was rerouted to the suspension tower and similarly the engine earth lead - do you know why? It seems an odd thing to do, particularly the rear towers because they are encased in bodywork and you don't have the same direct contact as you do with the boot floor bobbin - I'd start there.
good luck
Peter

[david.g.chapman]

There was a recent excellent post about the earth bolt in the boot on Elans and +2s.

You may have done this already, but the bolt head to chassis interface under the car is critical, and needs to be cleaned to a bright finish and Vaselined. I had a look at mine recently, undid the bolt completely from the chassis, cleaned up the bolt head and around the chassis hole and re-assembled. The starter operated considerably faster afterwards.

Dave Chapman.

[gjz30075]

John, I went through similar symptoms recently and ended up changing out the battery to ground cable and battery to solenoid cable. I had the orignal cables and trying to get a good connection was impossible because of corrosion underneath the sheathing, at least a foot or so back from the end. I bought some #2 welding cable from a local welding shop, soldered on the proper ends, and it made a BIG difference. I still have to change out the solenoid to starter cable but the improvement is already very noticable.

Greg Z

[ivor badger]

Do the side lights come on while trying to start the car? Does the interior light go dim while the door is open during and after starter is used?

[AussieJohn]

It's worth having a look at the solenoid [ easy to check if it's a bulkhead-mounted one] When you crank it cold have a voltmeter across the heavy contacts, if any voltage is measured while cranking then change it. Good luck, John.

[hatman]

My car had exactly the same symptoms that you describe and I too went through the contact-checking and battery-replacement routine until the starter motor eventually refused to turn over a cold engine (spun up like a good 'un under no load). A replacement starter (eBay - off a Plus 2, apparently) sorted everything out and turns the engine over briskly, hot or cold. If only I'd realised about five winters ago...

[bast0n]

WORZEL

I have had the same problem twice over the last 25 years and each time I convinced myself it was not a starter problem and did all the usual checks - and yes - both times it was the starter! Checked out fine off the car but would not work on it when cold. Dunno why.......

[ardee_selby]

But Worzel has already said "As a precaution I recently had the starter overhauled"

Cheers - rd

[garyeanderson]

Rohan pegged it in the first reply. The Lucas starter need a "float test in the deepest part of the Pacific ocean. Hurl that piece of crap starter and get on with a modern nippon-denso unit. Christ, not worth even talking about this subject. Rebuilt junk is still JUNK. Any one not think I have expressed myself on this subject email me and we will talk about it.

Gary