Help part deux

[handi_andi]

Hello all
A while back I asked for help on getting my Elan +2 S130 started as she was staunchly refusing to start. Well having taken everyones suggestions I board I chan out the coil for my old one and with a touch of starter fluid she fired up and was running perfectly happily. I tested the brakes with a few runs up and down the private road where I live and bar the fact the new pads need to bed in everything seems to be work incluidng the servo especially after fitting the additional spring, that was until today. Given everything seemed to be fine with her I booked her in for an MOT test on friday and decided to fire her up today.

Well she wouldn't fire up at all to begin with, then after putting the jump leads between the audi and her she was turning over very fast and fired up a few times but wouldn't sustain a run. Then the flywheel end of the engine started making a rattling chain noise. I pulled the plugs and tried turning her over but she wouldn't turn over and the starter spun up but without turning engine. I tried turning the engine over by hand but it wasn't as free as normal. Thinking maybe I had washed the lubricant out of the cylinders and having checked there was oil in the sump I put a little oil in each cylinder, but she was still not as free as before. Fearing I had a problem with either the cams the timing chain I took off the camshaft cover but all is well in there, with plenty of oil, correct tension in chain and everything moving fine. Hence cover was promptly reinstalled.

Given the starter is spinning up but not turning engine over properly I am suspecting that the starter pinion has not disengaged properly and is jamming up flywheel a bit in some way. Therefore I was wondering if this seems logical or if there could be some other explanation and if so what?

I only really have tomorrow to work on it as I would still liek to make the MOT test on Friday if I can especially as my classic car sympathetic garage is closing in two weeks.

When she fired up a couple of weeks ago I didn't have any problems with the starter and once running and hot she would restart just fine and am getting a nice spark now so think the other problem is cured.

Thanks for all and any suggestions

Cheers

Andy

[cliveyboy]

My guess is the starter motor.
It can be either stuck or loose both cause similar starting problems.
Also if you have to change the starter motor go for a 10 tooth bendix gear instead of the original 9 tooth. The 9 tends to jam up much more than the 10.

Clive

[1964 S1]

IF, it's the starter, here's some help on replacing it properly. The "high performance" ones are worth the extra cost. IMHO

http://www.lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=79719

[handi_andi]

If it is the starter and it is knackered I will be spitting and screaming since I only replaced last summer and haven't driven the car since bar a few brake test runs up and down private road. I think a high torque one will be going in if it is, although suspect would need to pull engine to check fly wheel first (groan groan)
Andy

[1964 S1]

I'm glad you brought up that flywheel subject. I was going to but thought I'd go easy. Your description is quite frightening, I'm very interested in knowing what happened, hopefully it's something simple. I'd remove the starter and see if the engine turns over easier (as I examined the teeth on the flywheel going by...

[cliveyboy]

Andy
You should not have to pull the engine if you are just wanting to check the flywheel is not chewed up.
I have removed the starter motor and slowly turned the engine by hand checking and feeling the edge of the teeth. As long as there are no great burrs or missing teeth etc you should be alright. (There will be a chamfer on leading edge to help the bendix engage).
Although the starter motor is newish if it is 9 teeth you will have the same problem as me. Engine jamming fitted new 9 tooth motor still jamming replaced with 10 tooth no more problems.

"HOW MANY TEETH DO THE NEW MODERN STARTERS HAVE SOMEONE"
It might be the extra torque eliminates the 9T problem

Clive

[chrishewett]

The high torque motor I fitted last year had nine teeth. I was assured this would be fine. However, it jammed and destroyed the starter. The suppliers sent me a new one but I have not fitted it until I investigate further. Meanwhile I have gone back to the old Lucas ten tooth unit . No problems.
The other thought I had on the subject is that the new unit engages the flywheel teeth on the other side. Doesn't it? The gears are drawn in on the old unit and thrown out on the new unit. Surely this must have an effect.
Chris

[handi_andi]

I know I will probably regret asking these two questions but:

1. How does one turn over the engine and examine the teeth on the flywheel when solo working?

2. What vehicles have 10tooth starter motors what will fit the lotus elan? Am just thinking from the point of view of getting a unit quickly from local motor factors.

Cheers

Andy

[gordonlund]

Try a atarter motor off a BMC Mini. They work.

What you must do though is put 3/4" Outside dia 1/8" thick washers behind the bolts to prevent the starter motor flanges from flexing and eventually breaking. A common fault on Mk1 Cortina corrected at Mk2 with an additional bolt outboard. Lotus never adopted this mod. Chassis is in the way.

Gordon

[handi_andi]

Thanks Gordon.

Well the starter motor turned out just to be loose. Engine turns over fine on starter although still nto so easy by hand when I last tried with the plugs out. However, I eventually got her fired up and she is running again now so she can go in for her test tomorrow, asusming that one I can get her started in the morning and two when I refit the now repaired microswitch it still operates like it does on the bench LOL

Can anyone explain why the curse of Mr Lucas always hits after you have got everything else working, and had all the electrics working before everything else?

Thanks for all the help as ever, Lotti wouldn't be running if it wasn't for this place.

Cheers

Andy

[1964 S1]

The way to check flywheel if you have no helper..... I'd get a white paint marker, mark the two teeth at the ends you can see through the starter motor opening, then have a wrench on the bottom crank pulley, turn it just enough that one mark goes out of sight but the other is at the edge, inspect the teeth, mark the other side, turn again, mark again, inspect, and continure the process until you come round to your original first mark. I Hope this makes sense.

[garyeanderson]

The way to check flywheel if you have no helper..... I'd get a white paint marker, mark the two teeth at the ends you can see through the starter motor opening, then have a wrench on the bottom crank pulley, turn it just enough that one mark goes out of sight but the other is at the edge, inspect the teeth, mark the other side, turn again, mark again, inspect, and continure the process until you come round to your original first mark. I Hope this makes sense.

This will only show you the teeth that were knocked off by the lucas bendix being drawn into the ring gear from the back side. The condition of the of the ring gear is normally only bad in 2 locations do to the fact that the engine will normally stop in the same place because of the compression stroke that it is on. When it gets to this point you have to rock the car to get some new teeth to engage.

Gary

[1964 S1]

Thank You Gary for nearly bailing me out on my post that appeared after the solution was posted. I was fearing he was in for the worst, broken ring gear. Your analysis is enlightening.
I'm glad this one turned out to be one of the simplest solutions.
Andy, Good Luck in MOT Land.

[handi_andi]

Well have to admit am seriously considering fitting a high torque starter anyway as this is second lot of starter motor trouble I have had. Has anyone brought from a company called Ratsport as they are advertising Elan starters?
Once it gets light here I will be refitting the micro switch and then rechecking the electrics before trying to get her started again. Then remove the unfitted trim from inside and drive it to the MOT station
Andy

[handi_andi]

Hi All
Thanks for the tips, I finally got lotti to the MOT station on Friday but not after having starting problems and breaking down twice on the way, which is rather embarassing since first time was 50yaars from home and second 100yards

In the end to get her started I fitted a set of Denson Iridium plugs which caused her to fire up instantly and she sthere quite happily idlly and reving up and down for an hour before I went to move her.

Then I moved her from the driveway and stalled her and she seemed to be lacking power. I then started to drive to MOT station and the conked out after about 50 yards and when I went to restart her the solenoid just went clickety click clickety click. So am thinking the starter motor mustn't have disengaged properly, would anyone concur? A bit of rocking back and forth in reverse and she started just fine.

Second time had got off the rough stuff onto the tarmac and was starting to accelerate when at 3000rpm she back fired and the engine died. When I restarted her the same thing happened, and for several times after that although once after the back fire there was white smoke came out from under the bonnet but on inspection no visible source. After checking the HT leads she ran just fine and I carried on my way, any one got any ideas why she owuld be back firing like that or where the smoke would come from.

About another 100yards up the road that was a loud metallic clunk and I shut off everything instantly fearing the worse. Visual inspection revealed nothing untoward and the car ran just fine. Am thinking though that I do have trouble in the cluth / flywheel area. Hence I was wondering if I pulled the gearbox with the car on ramps, which I assume is possible since I have a Spyder chassis? Is it basically a case of remove gear stick assembly, cluth slave cylinder, unbolt from engine and pull backwards as on other vehicles? Also, is it possible to change the flywheel, if necessary with the engine in the vehicle but the gearbox out of the way?

Cheers

Andy

PS Anyone got a 5speed box they would like to sell me?