Fitting Throttle bodies to twink.

[tdafforn]

As part of the winter rebuild/tinkering season I'm looking at the potential of puting EFI on my Twink.
I know in some peoples eyes this is sacrilidge, but I am planing on fitting it without making any major irrevesrable changes, so I can put the Dell's back if I fancy.
My two reasons for looking at EFI are

1) that I use the car every day during the summer and the 30yo dell's struggle to give me more than 20 mpg.

2) I fancy a new challenge!

Anyhow, has anyone any experience of getting inlet manfold adapters made so that you can fit bike throttle bodies. My guess is that there should be a generic unit available that fits the DCOE/DHLA stud pattern, but haven't seen on.
Cheers
tim

[SimonH]

How about using proper Weber TB's instead of the little bike throttles? I will be using them on mine when its done.

They look good, are in crackle black so match the cam cover and have all the machining for injectors built in. No brackets required and you can reuse your airbox.

[kenny]

Interesting but quite costly idea when you add all the parts up. I've gone down the throttle body route on a couple of cars, the last one being a Banks Europa which was fitted with a VX motor on 45's.(carbs)

I used Jenvey throttle bodies which at the time I bought for circa ?450. I used a DTA 3D Ignition @?550, and had a new fuel tank made up to suit with pump @?360. There were a lot of associated mods and rolling road fees which were needed that pushed final price to circa ?2000.

I have seen old x/flows and Twinks on TB/S and have seen other cars utilising bike t/b's.

I think it would make an interesting project re the bike t/b's to be honest and I fancy it myself, but I have a feeling it may be aproaching the cost of a Zetec conversion once finished.

Slightly of topic, has anyone ever seen a Duratec powered elan yet?

Kenny

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

As has been previously written, getting hold of cheap bike throttle bodies is only the start of something that will turn out to be expensive.
It's a way that I have considered because the company I work for makes bikes with single throttle bodies can't source 'em cheaper than that
Most commercially available twin choke throttle bodies (& there's quite a choice) are made to fit the DCOE flange pattern & you can get matching fuel rails injectors etc. to fit onto them.
I have a Zetec engined Elan presently running on 45 DCOE's & have also thought of going over to injection (Hrrm! got the 45 DCOE's um like very cheap ).
The cost of doing so would mean that I would have to do a lot of extra miles with the car to set off the cost.
Like you say, "doing the job would be interesting".
I have seen some historic race cars e.g. 105E Anglias fitted with Ford crossflow engines & 4 bike carbs bolted to them.
To be put in the catagory of time capsules I think.

To follow the "Hijack" I think fitting a Duratec to an Elan would be very difficult.
Somebody has already written that the engine is taller than the Zetec.
I see the problems starting with the cylinder head being designed the "other way around" i.e. the exhaust manifold is where the steering column is.
Most modern european designed engines are like this. (LHD)
The Japanese on the other hand, design their engines for RHD cars so subsequently the exhaust manifold is on the same side as the old twin cam.
These days nearly all engines are all transversely mounted which should not make much difference in the initial design; the way around the cylinder head is designed just seems to be traditional
Cheers
John

[tdafforn]

Part of the challenge I was laying down for myself was to see how cheap I could get the system done for.
The Weber or Jenvey throttle bodies would of course be ideal but I got the throttle bodies for less than the throttle position sensor on the weber of jenvey systems!
The spacing for the bodies is close to correct, and might need a little tweaking.
Manifold adapter plate (would like to buy one, but can make one if push comes to shove!)
Otherwise I was going to try the Megasquirt ECU approach (can get this fo 160 pounds)
trigger wheel 20 quid.
Sensors (crank, MAP, water temp etc) should be peanuts from a breakers
High pressure fuel pump from breakers
Swirl pot 80 quid
then its fuel lines, wiring harness, throttle cables.
Cheers
tim
PS have also heard that the Duratec, althought a great engine, is much less easy to use than the Zetec

It seems to me it could be possible to do the whole system for less than the cost of a pair of Jenvey bodies

[SimonH]

Ok, fair enough if you want to keep it cheap and already have the bodies.

Do they have injector pockets already? If they do then it should be easy.

I was working on the assumption that you would need to get a manifold made up with 4 injector pockets welded on and machined. Get the throttles and modify them to suit.

By the time you have done that if you cant do the welding and machining yourself it would end up being quite expensive and not far off the cost of the Weber TB's.
I have no idea how much Jenveys are but I wouldnt touch them with a bargepole, from the ones I've seen.

[carrierdave]

Hi all,
If you do a search on Berni you will see that he has posted a similar question last year. Alternatively have a look on his web site -

http://www.searchsmart.co.uk/lotus/2005_nov_dec.htm

Another contact is Wilcox engines - they actually sell a system.

http://www.wilcoxengines.demon.co.uk/twincam_parts.htm

Good luck

Dave

[tdafforn]

thanks for the details.
The bodies have a tps and injectors (which saves another 150 pounds or so if they are the correct flow rate for the application)
Cheers
Tim

[john.p.clegg]

Tim
I should have the throttle bodies (suzuki GPZ 1100) mounted on the airbox and other fittings cobbled together for Donnington, if you're interested I'll drop them in the boot and bring them and you can give me a bell on the day....

John

[tdafforn]

sounds cool,
My bike TBs arrived today. Its tempting to leave them as they are (ie don't respace them) and see if I can build a manifold to suit. Particularly as they came with an airbox and filter setup that (I think) would fit neatly between the engine and side wall of the engine compartment.
Was also surprised that the whole lot came with an air temp sensor and MAP sensor all on the same loom as the TPS and injectors (very neat).
Will bring mine to Donnington. Won't be in the +2 however as I am in the middle of engine rebuild (711M block).
cheers
Tim

[berni29]

Hi There

As mentioned by Dave before I looked into this last year. I found that the Suzuki GZXR K3 (600cc bike) were a good bet because of the closely matched body size and flow rates from the standard injectors. It comes complete with the TPS, injectors and linkage. I got rid of the extra gubbins (aux butterflies etc) and spaced them out. (I do have another untouched set as well). There was a guy on ebay making up individual dcoe flanges with the correct size tubes welded on. I will have to try to look him up again.

I bought a V3 megasquirt from ebay and that is as far as I got. I was last looking into the fuel system required, and if I could avoid the return pipe to the fuel tank which seemed like a pain. Apparently you can but I cannot remember the layout.

I would really like to get the ball rolling again. Especially since I have fallen out of love with the webers.

I also had some good links to sites where people had done this sort of thing to escorts and fiestas. I will try to find them and post them up.

All the best

Berni

[tdafforn]

My bike TBs arrived last week (CBR 600FSi). The diameters are a pretty perfect match. They also lack the auxilary butterflies...
for the fuel system I have a high pressure pump from a subaru which I was going to set up in the boot with a low pressure pump feeding a swirl pot. The return from the low pressure circuit dumping back into the tank via one of the tank breathers.
(Having the contact details of the guy who made the DCOE flanges would be cool.)
Cheers
Tim

[SimonH]

If you dont want to use a low pressure pump in the system you could use a fitting of the correct size to allow a swirl pot to fill by gravity. The breather could then run to the large tank breather as you say.

The fuel pump can be converted to returnless to save running the return pipe front to back by putting the reg in the boot and returning to the swirl pot there. Or get a returnless fuel pump, I am using a Toyota Celica/MR2 one.

The guy named Bozo in this link, here, apologies as I cant get his email address of it you will need to use the contact link, used to sell the flanges on Ebay. He said he has stopped but if you wanted to contact him he may do another.

[tdafforn]

like the idea of a gravity fed low pressure side!
In your system would there be a problem with fuel around the injectors getting to warm> (I may not have understood fully?)
Tim

[SimonH]

I can see your concerns.

I have been working on a car that uses that system and we have tested in very hot cimates, 50degC at worst in Death Valley. We had no issues either with hot soak restarts or hot running.

It should not be an issue when running as the fuel is being used at a reasonable rate, its only on restart that it may be a problem. I will find out in due course!
The only thing that is a pain is bleeding it from new or if it sits for a very long time. The pump will prime and a few cranks will sort it though.