Lucas 23D Points Baseplate

[111Robin]

Not yet. To be honest I'm afraid to. I'm fed up breaking down in unsafe locations, it's nerve wracking. If the weather is OK tomorrow I'll try to venture out. I'll be fully equipped, including a spare coil if the existing one is being fried.

[billwill]

Those symptoms sound like a failing rotor arm, I've had that happen in the past, It looked perfect & behaved perfectly under all my tests but broke down on trips (no spark at the plugs) I had to call out the RAC & the driver kindly took me back to my place to fetch a spare rotor arm that I had in a drawer in my garage. He didn't have any in his van. We first visited a late-night motor spares shop but they didn't have the right one in stock either.

Basically there was an 'invisible' carbon track from the brass contact on top, to the steel rotating shaft of the distributor.

[111Robin]

Highly unlikely in this case, it's a new rotor, no rivet, from the Distributor Doctor.

[SENC]

looking forward to hearing how it went on points, hoping for good news. I think you are right focusing on ignition first - so many little things that can affect the outcome. Its too big too attach but if interested pm me your email and I'll send you the lucas manual for disteibutors and coils - I've found it a useful troubleshooting guide - will help you complete the steps 2cams has started you on.

[111Robin]

Thanks Henry. I have the Lucas Fault Diagnosis Service Manual, covering ignition, charging, starting etc., very useful in cases like these.

[111Robin]

Sorted. Driving very nicely, pulling right through the rev range, a solid two hour drive today with no issues. Coil only mildly warm, normal. As I did several things since the last break down it's difficult to pinpoint the root cause :

Aldon Ignitor removed and replaced with points and condenser
Copper HT leads replaced with suppressed leads/caps (moot point now as copper is fine with points)
Aftermarket fuel pump replaced with NOS AC glass top pump
Webers removed incase I had nipped an O-ring. I hadn't but did discover casting flaws in the alloy seal plates that I hadn't noticed first time. So I replaced the plates with good used ones, new O-rings.
Reset float heights. They weren't far off, just needed a slight tweak.

However, as this was originally a WANTED post, I'd like to return to the original request for a baseplate. The one I have does work obviously but I'd prefer one with the correct length pivot pin.

[pharriso]

Awesome that you are moving reliably again, but would be nice to know what was at fault...

[111Robin]

Awesome that you are moving reliably again, but would be nice to know what was at fault...

I agree. I don't like condemning the electronic ignition as I've been running the same system on another two cars for many years, although perhaps on this car the supply voltage is too high, I'm not sure. It could have been the fuel pump, but the one I replaced was brand new and from one of the main suppliers, so it's unlikely. The Weber O ring plates looked pretty ropey, flaws/cracks around the bores, but they weren't through to the outside, the grooves held brake cleaner, so I doubt it was drawing air at these. Float heights were only marginally out, less than 1mm so shouldn't have cause break downs. My money is on the electronic ignition, but it will be the first issue I've had with this type for many years and for two sets to fail is improbable although not impossible if the input was outwith specification.

[SENC]

Good news, glad to hear - now enjoy!

[pharriso]

Sorted. Driving very nicely, pulling right through the rev range, a solid two hour drive today with no issues. Coil only mildly warm, normal. As I did several things since the last break down it's difficult to pinpoint the root cause :

Aldon Ignitor removed and replaced with points and condenser
Copper HT leads replaced with suppressed leads/caps (moot point now as copper is fine with points)
Aftermarket fuel pump replaced with NOS AC glass top pump
Webers removed incase I had nipped an O-ring. I hadn't but did discover casting flaws in the alloy seal plates that I hadn't noticed first time. So I replaced the plates with good used ones, new O-rings.
Reset float heights. They weren't far off, just needed a slight tweak.

You changed many things, but the Fuel pump & carburettor were unlikely to cause the engine to stop, then start again once cooled down.

On October 23rd you said:

I have no reason to doubt the distributor, aside from the electronic ignition. Timing is spot on and advance is per the book through the rev range. I have replaced the coil already as this was my initial suspicion. I did get the chance to pull the king lead after one breakdown and there was a spark. I have noticed the coil gets pretty hot to touch, not sure if it's excessive as I don't make a habit of feeling coils on my other cars. One thing I have to admit, when I made new HT leads initially I used copper wires, forgetting this was a no no with the EI. I have now made new leads with suppressed wire and caps, however perhaps the module has already been damaged as a result of using the copper leads. I'm kicking myself about this as it could be a reason, however it always starts and runs perfectly in the garage, up to normal temperature, never misses a beat. It's only once on the road with load on the engine it starts to act up. Perhaps a red herring but the one time it never broke down was a night run, headlamps on. I'm not sure if it was luck or if the draw o the alternator caused a reduction in the voltage going to the EI, perhaps the alternator output is too high. This is something I've yet to check.

In view of the coil getting so hot I would just swap it...another component to consider is the condensor, both can give intermittent faults but are cheap to replace.

I haven't run it with points and condenser yet. The coil is new, it's getting hot with the electronic ignition. It is correct impedance, 3 ohms, no ballast resistor. I have heard of the coils frying due to insufficient dwell, not sure if that can apply to EI where the dwell period is fixed by the electronics. The way it runs in the garage wouldn't suggest the dwell was far off though so I don't know why the Coul is so hot. I'll see what it's like running on points.

So you're saying your Coil was getting hot.. As a data point I took my car out for an hours drive & then measured it's temperature; mine is a ballasted system, but operating temperature should be similar... With an ambient temp of 49 def F (10 deg C) the coil reached 130 deg F (54 deg C), so luke warm.

I think you're onto something here, I suspect too much dwell causing the coil to overheat. Normally dwell isn't adjustable in electronic systems; however it can be affected by the positioning of the trigger in the distributor. Not sure if you had/have an optical or inductive pickup, but did you check the positioning?

For reference I am attaching the instructions for my Crane Cams Electronic Ignition which comes with an optical trigger, note the section on page 15:

CraneCams_xr700 instructions.pdf

(507.24 KiB) Downloaded 56 times

"ROUGH OR INTERMITTENT OPERATION
1. Improper phasing is the most likely cause of rough running on new installations. Check phasing according to instructions in the section on Completing the Installation."

I know you've taken things apart & are running points now... measure the coil temp now things are running well...

I went through a warm misfire, won't idle when hot issue in Spring 2021, discussed here in https://lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=49138, you'll recognise a lot of the steps/pain I went through.

After you've had time to think about things & settle down you can consider putting the electronic ignition back in, adjusting the trigger in the distributor per the manufacturer's instructions. But If I were you I'd enjoy the car as is for a few months...

[111Robin]

It's a hall effect ignition, there are no adjustments, identical to the Petronix Ignitor.

In my opinion, the fact that I could coax some revs from it with full throttle about half a dozen times before it finally gave up suggests I was emptying the float chambers. I cannot say categorically that it recovered after a certain period of time due to temperature reduction, it is probably more like I was slowly refilling the carburettors the more I cranked it.
Either way I'm not putting the electronic ignition back as it's running perfectly now. I may have been mislead by the coil temperature as I was spending so much time adjusting the timing and mixture in the garage with no airflow around it. On the road the coil is only mildly warm.

[pharriso]

...I cannot say categorically that it recovered after a certain period of time due to temperature reduction, it is probably more like I was slowly refilling the carburettors the more I cranked it.

So how did changing to points fix that issue ?

[111Robin]

It wasn't necessarily changing the points. In the interim period I also swapped out the fuel pump, this could have been the culprit. The car came with electronic ignition fitted. Incase this was faulty I swapped it for a brand new one and the problem persisted. I doubt very much that both units were faulty.
Who knows, nothing is 100% conclusive but it is driving perfectly now and I don't want to jinx it by putting the ignition back to electronic. The pump came from one of the well known suppliers but in my opinion is inferior quality rubbish and had a lot of free play in the mechanism. Of course when I asked, no one else had had any issues with them, Surprise surprise !.

[2cams70]

If that electronic ignition was designed to operate from the supply voltage from a ballasted ignition system and you used it connected to a supply voltage from an unballasted ignition it could have been the cause of problems.

[111Robin]

If that electronic ignition was designed to operate from the supply voltage from a ballasted ignition system and you used it connected to a supply voltage from an unballasted ignition it could have been the cause of problems.

It is a standard 12v supply Aldon Ignitor, specifically for non ballasted ignition. I have the same on two other cars with no issues for twenty years.