Lotus Elan

+2 Power Windows Troubleshooting

PostPost by: davidwinegar » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:25 pm

I took my 1970 +2S to the shops yesterday and had the windows down on a nice summer day here in Helsinki (a rarity!). Rolled the windows up when in the parking garage and now they are stuck up and won't move down. Been dreading an electrical problem since I bought the car :-( and now I have one.

My car has relays for the windows under the dash on both sides - 2 for each window - looks like one for going up and another for going down. Can feel when I push the switch that something internally is clicking so I guess they are somehow working.

My question is, how to troubleshoot this? Is it more likely a fuse issue? I have been trying to figure which fuse is connected to the windows in my +2S. This is the diagram from the manual https://goo.gl/photos/KeQVqRze6Qj3TcEZ6 but seems some years ago I made a note at the bottom that the windows were connected to the indicator fuse. The indicators are working fine. As are the Hazards (which the manual says is where the windows should be). So now what should I do?

What would be the troubleshooting advice - unfortunately without the ability to open the windows I am pretty much unable to drive as it just gets too hot these days.

Appreciate any help.

David
1970 +2S Federal, Helsinki, Finland
davidwinegar
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 150
Joined: 23 May 2004

PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:39 pm

David, a couple of thoughts / questions. Sorry I am a bit rambling; trying to think it out as I type I guess. :D

Are the relays the Lucas can style or the Bosch cube style? No difference electrically but different terminal number / letters.

Is the door ash tray equipped with a light in your car? Is it working? One of the wiring diagrams shows the window motors use the same ground as the ash tray light. I would expect this ground is attached at the dash brackets where the interior light switches are located. Are the interior lights working from the door switches? In your case I don't immediately suspect the ground as I understand you have lost the use of both windows; both bracket grounds do meet at the main dash ground (right side of lower dash bracket) but this would effect a bunch of other stuff in the car.

Do your windows normally work with key off? The diagrams appears to show two variants of electrical supply to the window switches. One variant (the later variant I believe) uses Green power supply, which is typically 'Hot in Run & Start, Fused' The diagram shows it supplied from the centre fuse box, second fuse from the left, common with brake lights and fog / spot lights. The other variant (the original variant I believe) uses White / Black power supply directly from the control box through the left fuse in the front fuse box, common with nothing else. There are other variants shown for Federal cars but they appear to be single fuse box so doubt relevant. Can you see the wire colours that supply the main lift motor power to the relays and the wire colours running from the switches to the relays?

The relays have been added rather than stock. It is possible the power to the switch and subsequently connected to the relay coil ('trigger') is from one fuse and the power connected directly to the relay and subsequently to the lift motor from another fuse. Can you easily get to the relays to check for voltage?

Yes, the typical wiring setup uses one relay for up and one for down. From your description the relays are clicking for both up and down on both sides of the car? I therefore do not suspect the power supply to the switches, coil trigger wires to the relay(s), or the relay coil ground(s).

What I have found with my rewired window lifts is the lift motor fuse size needs to be at least 15 amps to prevent them blowing at motor stall in the full up or full down position, so thinking you are correct to suspect these fuses first. If both windows were stalled simultaneously the draw could be higher. When actually running, the lift motors seem to draw closer to 7 to 10 amps.

Where are your added relays located in the car, as may provide a clue where the lift motor power was sourced?

Diagrams I see show the hazards and indicators supplied from a separate fuse than the window lifts. It is possible the motor supply was moved to this fuse when the relays were installed?

HTH

Stu
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
User avatar
stugilmour
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

PostPost by: davidwinegar » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:45 pm

Hi Stu, thanks for the quick reply - let me answer your questions below in the body of your text...

Are the relays the Lucas can style or the Bosch cube style? No difference electrically but different terminal number / letters.


The relays are the Hella Relays out of Germany


Is the door ash tray equipped with a light in your car? Is it working? One of the wiring diagrams shows the window motors use the same ground as the ash tray light. I would expect this ground is attached at the dash brackets where the interior light switches are located. Are the interior lights working from the door switches? In your case I don't immediately suspect the ground as I understand you have lost the use of both windows; both bracket grounds do meet at the main dash ground (right side of lower dash bracket) but this would effect a bunch of other stuff in the car.


No lights in my ashtrays - smoking blind in my car :-) The interior lights are working from the dash switch, along with the instrument lights, and also the "puddle" lights and red "warning" lights on the doors. Correction - there are lights in my ashtrays- I just took them out and see there is a little red light in the back, but I have to say in the nearly 15 years I have owned it, I have never seen those actually on so no idea if they have power or if the bulb is dead. But that is one thing I could try to see if there is a ground problem.

Do your windows normally work with key off? The diagrams appears to show two variants of electrical supply to the window switches. One variant (the later variant I believe) uses Green power supply, which is typically 'Hot in Run & Start, Fused' The diagram shows it supplied from the centre fuse box, second fuse from the left, common with brake lights and fog / spot lights. The other variant (the original variant I believe) uses White / Black power supply directly from the control box through the left fuse in the front fuse box, common with nothing else. There are other variants shown for Federal cars but they appear to be single fuse box so doubt relevant. Can you see the wire colours that supply the main lift motor power to the relays and the wire colours running from the switches to the relays?


Yes, my windows did work with the key off - well let's say they went down but not up with the key off - strange I know but this is how they worked. Here are a couple of pictures of the relays and the fuse box - wire colors are difficult in the engine bay to make out as so many have faded. Wires to relays interior: https://goo.gl/photos/XeK9PC4d3FSqDBEb7 Engine bay: https://goo.gl/photos/MKPFGY8rVSgUqWqQ7

The relays have been added rather than stock. It is possible the power to the switch and subsequently connected to the relay coil ('trigger') is from one fuse and the power connected directly to the relay and subsequently to the lift motor from another fuse. Can you easily get to the relays to check for voltage?


Yes, as you can see from the picture above, I can easily get to the relays, and this was also one thing I checked with my multi-meter. Yes, they are getting power.

Yes, the typical wiring setup uses one relay for up and one for down. From your description the relays are clicking for both up and down on both sides of the car? I therefore do not suspect the power supply to the switches, coil trigger wires to the relay(s), or the relay coil ground(s).


Yes, I agree, seems they are indeed working with voltage and clicking on both sides.

What I have found with my rewired window lifts is the lift motor fuse size needs to be at least 15 amps to prevent them blowing at motor stall in the full up or full down position, so thinking you are correct to suspect these fuses first. If both windows were stalled simultaneously the draw could be higher. When actually running, the lift motors seem to draw closer to 7 to 10 amps.

Where are your added relays located in the car, as may provide a clue where the lift motor power was sourced?


They are inside the car under the dashboard bolted into the bulkhead.

Diagrams I see show the hazards and indicators supplied from a separate fuse than the window lifts. It is possible the motor supply was moved to this fuse when the relays were installed?


Anything is possible - it was this way when I bought the car so no idea what the previous owners did - or attempted to do. Certainly seems that it is a power issue of getting the power down to the door motors. But where it is getting interrupted, I am at a loss to understand. I will have a mechanic friend of mine try to come and help me hopefully this week - but if you have any advice on what to check - please let me know.


HTH

Stu

Post by davidwinegar ? 12 Jul 2016 01:25 pm
I took my 1970 +2S to the shops yesterday and had the windows down on a nice summer day here in Helsinki (a rarity!). Rolled the windows up when in the parking garage and now they are stuck up and won't move down. Been dreading an electrical problem since I bought the car :-( and now I have one.

My car has relays for the windows under the dash on both sides - 2 for each window - looks like one for going up and another for going down. Can feel when I push the switch that something internally is clicking so I guess they are somehow working.

My question is, how to troubleshoot this? Is it more likely a fuse issue? I have been trying to figure which fuse is connected to the windows in my +2S. This is the diagram from the manual https://goo.gl/photos/KeQVqRze6Qj3TcEZ6 but seems some years ago I made a note at the bottom that the windows were connected to the indicator fuse. The indicators are working fine. As are the Hazards (which the manual says is where the windows should be). So now what should I do?

What would be the troubleshooting advice - unfortunately without the ability to open the windows I am pretty much unable to drive as it just gets too hot these days.
davidwinegar
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 150
Joined: 23 May 2004

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:15 pm

Bad earth...this is the return path for both up and down..

John :wink:
User avatar
john.p.clegg
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 5680
Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:04 pm

john.p.clegg wrote:Bad earth...this is the return path for both up and down..

John :wink:


That is what I first thought as well John, but with puddle lights and interior lights working i am assuming the motor grounds are OK. That said, assuming a Lotus ground is good.... :D The grounds to the relays should be OK based on them clicking.

Stu
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
User avatar
stugilmour
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:31 pm

So, looked over your excellent relay picture. These are what I meant by Bosch style relays; they use standard terminal numbers and positions. Apologize if this is obvious, but yours are probably "Double Make and Break" five terminal relays with the centre Terminal 87b not used. Doesn't really matter, as they appear to be connected as follows, and could be replaced with a four terminal "Make and Break". i may have the wire colours wrong so have included positions.

Red Wire (Top in photo) - Common power supply for the lift motors - Terminal 30
Black Wire (Right in photo) - Common relay coil ground - Terminal 86
Yellow and Blue Wires (Bottom in photo) - Relay switched power wires that go to the lift motors - Terminal 87
White / Yellow and White / Black wires (Left in photo) - Trigger wires from switch to relay coil - Terminal 85

To trouble shoot

Check for 12 v at the red wire. This should be 12 v with the key either off or on from your description. Try to follow this red to the fuse box. I think I see a large red in your fuse box pic that looks like it may be it. Check associated fuse etc. Careful as it looks like your car uses Red for switched power supply to the side and tail lights; my car uses different colours.

Apply 12 volts directly to the Yellow and / or Blue wires to directly move the lift motors. If they move your door grounds are indeed OK. Might want to disconnect the wires from the relay to do this check.

Manipulate the dash switches while checking for 12 volts at the White / Yellow and White / Black wires. These are likely OK if the relay is clicking.

Check for ground at the Black wire. This is likely OK if the relays are clicking.

Still puzzling on the windows going one way with the key off and both ways with the key on. Have to look up the actual switch configuration to confirm, but I am expecting this is the 'variant' I was referring to above. The Green switch supply wire is only hot with the key on (goes to right side middle switch terminal). The other switch supply wire is hot at all times (goes to the left middle switch terminal). I think I misread the variant in the diagram; perhaps the switch actually has two supplies, and uses a different supply depending on the motor direction. Interesting set up.

HTH Interesting mystery for a rainy day. :D

Stu
Attachments
relay-double-make-and-break-five-blade.jpg and
Schematic of a double make and break relay
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
User avatar
stugilmour
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

PostPost by: stugilmour » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:20 pm

For reference, here is a schematic of the dash window switches. Not expecting a switch failure per se as would be unlikely to loose both windows at once.

As you appear to have two separate power supplies to your switches, do the windows move in one direction but not the other? Again, would not expect both power supplies to fail at one time, and from your description there is two supplies that are from separate fuses.

Terminal 2 is the Green - Hot in Run & Start power supply.
Terminal 5 is the Hot at all times power supply.
Terminal 4 is the wire that powers the the lift motor direction at all times.
Terminal 3 is the wire that powers the lift motor direction only with the key in run or start.

Stu
Attachments
window-switch-schematic.jpg
Dash switch schematic originally posted by Gerry. This shows the 'conventional' connection with one supply wire to one of the middle terminals.
window-switch-schematic.jpg (43.31 KiB) Viewed 986 times
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
User avatar
stugilmour
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

PostPost by: gus » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:36 am

They both refuse to go down?
Do they try to go up if you hit the switch?

If they both do not go down and do not attempt to go up then it must be in the power before the relays and switches
look for other non switched devices that do not work and trace from there


I see lucas fuse boxes

wiggle the fuse,happened to me the first weekend I owned my [earlier 2 fuse] Plus two in 1984
gus
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 620
Joined: 05 May 2011

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:11 pm

"If they both do not go down and do not attempt to go up then it must be in the power before the relays and switches "

..or the earth , which is common.

John :wink:
User avatar
john.p.clegg
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 5680
Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

PostPost by: davidwinegar » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:20 pm

Update-- I was able to get the windows working by bypassing completely the relays on both sides and hooking the power straight to the window motors.

My question now is, does this mean the relays are bad? Is there any other possibility for why they are not working? Seems very strange that they both go out at the same time, but I can think of no other possibility as to why they are not working when hooked to the relays but working when powered directly.

Also, a possible other problem with the lights now. When I am now pulling the light switch to turn on the lights, the front lights come on but the parking lights do not, nor do any of the rear lights, unless I push the lights button.

I am certain my car previously worked this way, pull the light switch and all lights came on. Push it in and push the switch "off" to turn the lights off. But how should these work in the original configuration? Can be when messing about with the relays, I mixed up the wiring on the lights :-(

Thanks again to all for the help - much appreciated.

David
davidwinegar
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 150
Joined: 23 May 2004

PostPost by: gus » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:23 pm

sounds like you have lost unswitched power to some devices, look at the fuse boxes
gus
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 620
Joined: 05 May 2011

PostPost by: billwill » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:56 pm

From your description, the most likely cause of the problem is a bad earth TO THE RELAYS, not the windows.

Or as mentioned the power feed to the relays from the fusees.


Those glass fuses are highly unreliable, I'ver had situatios where a fuse tests fine on an ohm-meter, but doesn't work properly in the fuse box. Alway keep spares on hand.
Bill Williams

36/6725 S3 Coupe OGU108E Yellow over Black.
billwill
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 4715
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: London UK

PostPost by: stugilmour » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:25 pm

David, for the light switch we need a tad more detail. I believe there are a several versions of this circuit.

Is your headlight vacuum switch a pull on knob? Is the side light switch next to it a flat momentary rocker switch such that it is momentarily pressed on one side to turn on the side lights and momentarily pressed on the other side to turn them off?

If the above is correct I believe you will have two rectangular micro switches attached to the side of the headlight vacuum switch. You should be able to see these with the dash side cover moved out of the way.

If this all checks out, you may have simple misalignment of one of the micro switches or a switch failure. Can direct you to more detailed links on the fix (including micro switch crossover part number), but to avoid confusion best to confirm your circuit type. :) Good news; if this is the issue it can probably be corrected without dash removal.

PS Is your car LHD or RHD? Not sure of the standard in Iceland. Your weather sounds better than here though! :)
HTH

Stu
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
User avatar
stugilmour
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

PostPost by: stugilmour » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:46 pm

David, to add to the excellent comments on the fuses. Sometimes there can be an electrical connection that tests OK with your multimeter but will not work reliably with the high current of something like the lift motors. As mentioned, the stock glass fuses are classic for poor connection, but aging bullet connectors can also be at fault. This will generally not be an issue on the very low current draw associated with the relay coil and trigger wiring, unless of course some other high current device on the same fuse/circuit is on at the same time..

Have you checked the relay ground and power supply from the dash switches?

Yes, it is possible to have a relay failure, but very unlikely four would fail simultaneously.

Another general thought; there can be more than one thing wrong causing your issue, but everyone is on the same page to check the common elements first and eliminate them. Also the focus is to check everything that is easily accessible first, including relay supply and ground, fuse box integrity, motor function test without taking apart the door, etc.

To confirm, when you function tested the motors they work in both the up and down directions on both sides, and you did this using their stock ground connections? i.e. You ran an Unfused jumper from the positive battery post or similar power supply and manipulated them by alternatively powering the leads located at the relays? If so this is huge as it narrows things a lot. Repeat this function check using the master red power wire located at the relays as a power supply; if you already performed the motor function test in this manner it is double huge.

HTH. This is absolutely fixable.

Stu
Stu
1969 Plus 2 Federal LHD
User avatar
stugilmour
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

PostPost by: davidwinegar » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:57 pm

Thank Stu for the excellent advice...

To clarify for the windows, my system has some plastic wire connectors going into the doors all I did was to unplug those and plug in the "Hot" wire that was going to the relays directly to the door. One wire was up the other down, so just took the "Hot" wire from the up and down relays and connected them directly to the wires going to the window motor. I didn't have to take the door card off or run any additional wires. The windows are now going up and down via the switches as they should, although without any relays. - hopefully this makes sense.

For the lights, I have the set-up as you described. Pull light switch with a rocker switch next to it. I will have to see can I located the micro switches next to the vacuum switch. But one thing that has always made me wonder is how should the lights work. When you pull the vacuum switch should all the lights go on, front, back, parking lights ALL, and is it normal that when you push the vacuum switch in, that you need to also push the switch to turn the lights off? This is always how mine has worked, but no idea how it was "rewired" in the past.

David
davidwinegar
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 150
Joined: 23 May 2004
Next

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests