Strange solenoid/electrical/ground problems . . . again!

[Sea Ranch]

Greetings,

Some of you might remember my rambling adventures with the remote starter solenoid on my 1970 +2 this past June . . .

elan-f15/anyone-try-rebuild-lucas-remote-solenoid-t22978.html

I'm back again, with a collection of electrical symptoms which I'd like to think are all related to one simple-to-fix source problem, but I can't yet say!! The symptoms are these:
- with battery fully charged, and alternator working well,
- periodic dim ignition/charge light when switching on key
- click sound from solenoid and no starter turn-over (like the battery is too low)
- my old original solenoid's push button working erratically and now not at all
- cleaned all solenoid connections . . . no help
- when measuring voltage at the solenoid (battery side), sometimes it's way low (5 or 6 volts), then minutes later it measures at 13 volts
- for the life of me I can't get the power to pass across the battery-side terminal to the starter-side terminal on solenoid, no matter how hard I rub the screwdriver I'm using
- for good measure, I disassembled the ignition switch, cleaned terminals and successfully reassembled
- finally, with ignition switch in first position (after off), the "battery condition" gauge reads 13 volts; when I switch to second (ignition) position, the gauge reading drops steadily to below 11 volts (I think that's a low as it reads).
- when I do a power drain test at the battery, with ignition off, there is no parasitic drain. But with the ignition switch in second (ignition) position, I'm losing 6.5 amps!!
- I have electronic ignition installed (been there for years).

So . . . ack! Should electronic ignition be draining that much amperage with the ignition switch on??? And why can I not short the solenoid terminals and get the starter motor spinning? When I remove and test the solenoid, the push button closes the connection between batt and starter terminals, according to my DMM, but who knows whether it can pass high current. Are the bolt terminals on the top of the solenoid corroded internally?

Anyway, you get my drift . . . I'll not bore you with any more details at this time. I have a power and/or connection and/or ground problem. Any suggestions on where to look GRATEFULLY received! Thanks so much!

Randy

[miked]

Hi Randy,

Just reading your opening bit, without the rest and getting too detailed, it sounds like you have main connection problems (resistance in the main power path). I would sort that first. Just start with that and lets get the engine to turn.

Have you got some long (starter) jump leads,if not get hold of some.This all assumes you have a good solenoid and car is negative earth. If you suspect your solenoid, can you not swap it, they are not expensive.

Jumper out from the battery negative to the engine body with one lead. Then try it by hot wiring the solenoid. If it works, you have an earth path to sort out. Most suspect with the chassis being a conductor.

If no joy, suspect the main positive (rare). If insulation was nicked, decades ago, you could have copper turn to blue/green verdigris. Very rare.

Now put a jumper from the battery positive to the solenoid positive. Hot wire the solenoid and crank the engine. If it works you have a nasty/poor connection on the positive lead.

PS the boot area negative is the main place for problems and also the straps on the engine to the body. I fit a copper bus bar on the inside of the boot across the two chassis bobbin studs. I renew the studs and clean the chassis back to bare metal and fit big washers etc. Then copaslip underneath. I fit the negative lead from the clean bus bar in the boot to the battery. I also fit 2 straps up front on the engine.

Connections on 12 volt need to be very clean metal to metal. If you have any green nasty stuff, you will have problems. Sorry but folks ideas of electrically clean can vary.

Mike

[oldelanman]

Hi Randy,
I would strongly suspect the battery main earth point in the boot. As Mike says it's vital to ensure you have good contact between the bolt and the chassis under the car and not just between the terminal and the bolt inside the boot. There is a tendency when tightening down the nut to undo the bolt itself - it's a good idea to put a spanner on it while you do up the nut. Sorry if that's obvious but it can be overlooked - I've done it myself !

As for the current draw with the ignition in the 'run' position......that's probably the coil. Unless the primary circuit is open (ie on the point of sparking) the coil will be connected and draining the battery. Try pulling the LT wire off the coil and see what happens.

Good luck.
Regards,

[ardee_selby]

Randy,

What's already been said...plus...please take care when "testing" the main earthing point in the boot!

If it isn't 100% it can get rather warm to the touch when trying to start her up...my burnt finger & thumb took quite some time to heal! Doh! But at least I'd found the culprit

Cheers - Richard

[bob_rich]

Hi

Agree with all the earlier posts regarding earths. Have you got a test meter? If so set it on volts and connected -ve to the battery negative terminal and the +ve the the engine block If in doubt about the earths run a temporary new lead from the battery to the engine block. Use a short piece of wire to extend the test meter leads. If when you try to start there is a big voltage (2V or more) drop across this then that is definitely the problem so it is either the rear earth or the earth from engine block to chassis at the front. Gauges and some circuits can play up if the earth of the dashboard circuits by the body bobbin behind the dash and close to the gear box is a bit iffy. also the earth to the solenoid body should be sound as this is required to properly energize it.

Hope this helps

Best of luck

Bob

[Sea Ranch]

I am now, finally, a Master Mechanic!

I've just renewed the boot chassis ground (after careful study of all your suggestions), with help from my son on the top wrench (nut inside boot) whilst I manned the underside bolt. When, this past June, I had renewed/cleaned the nut and battery cable surfaces, I had NOT checked to make sure the bolt was not unthreading. When I looked at it this morning, it was a half inch backed out of the bobbin and away from the chassis. Removed it, cleaned it and the chassis, etc. Reinstalled (with help from aforementioned son) and voila:
- the remote starter solenoid push button works immediately instead of with a pause or not at all
- the ignition/charge light is lit bright
- the ignition switch turns over the motor INSTANTLY (the motor has always been an excellent start-er - now it just lights up)

Truthfully, after cleaning so many contacts, I was not expecting such a major response from this one earth re-making. But wow. A changed car.

Time for thanks: to Mike, Roger, Richard, Bob and John. Your suggestions were all great (and will be using them as I continue to track down other bad grounds and drains).

Yet another example of the "power of the forum" Hope you will all enjoy the rest of the summer as I will!

Randy

[ardee_selby]

"I am now, finally, a Master Mechanic! "

Great! Now you're in the "A" team, don't ya love it when a plan comes together?...

...more seriously thanks for feedback. There have been so many open ended threads where nobody gets to know the outcome, good or bad.

[Sea Ranch]

Thanks, Richard. I agree; we read and contribute to the forum as a form of mutual support, but a lot of the enjoyment comes from the "story" or drama element and it's good to read a conclusion.

Interesting, too, the role that emotions play in diagnosing and fixing a problem. I suspected that grounds were my problem, but I didn't want to "go there" because I had re-newed the motor and battery contact points in June (or so I thought) without much effect. I didn't want to do it again only to be disappointed.

[oldelanman]

Well done Randy. Glad it turned out to be something simple.....and cheap to fix.

...more seriously thanks for feedback. There have been so many open ended threads where nobody gets to know the outcome, good or bad.

Couldn't agree more Richard. It is disheartening when you offer information or advice and get no feedback whatsoever.

Regards,

[miked]

Well done Randy. It is good when things come together.

I had some good news today. See my thread about the Plus 2S ID. Just about to update it.

regards Mike

[memini55]

Randy,

Glad you had success with the ground connection. Now I will give you a couple of pointers for future thoughts. The ground connection happens at many points on the chassis and it can be an issue at any point along the path causing many strange faults. You have the main one at the rear which you found and it is almost always the problem with the starter. Once you have cleaned it well go out to home depot or what ever you have in your area and gets some of the goop for electrical connections and smear it all over the connection once you have it tightened down. It will keep water and grime fron causing it to loose connection again. Now you have several other ground points, one near the dash lower right corner bolt to tunnel. The motor has a ground strap near a motor mount. The front body bolt that bolts to the top strut tower on the left side and then again maybe the front bolt on the body near the steering rack. Any of these can have bad or weak connections. Always clean off the paint and any rust. In my sons +2 I ran a seperate welding cable to all connection points to remove the chasis from the equation. Welding cable works great as it is heavey gauge and very fine strands. Some might say this is overkill but it never has faulty electrics.

Mark

[stugilmour]

Sounds great Randy, thanks for letting us know it worked out. I ended up moving the rear ground point to the right side bolt that goes into the rear tower (behind the seat where the brace is attached). Nice and dry up there and it is a threaded connection into the chassis rather than a nut and bolt deal.

[Sea Ranch]

Super. Nice to hear from you again, Mark. And I really like the idea of a cable that makes it's own run between the main ground points.

The one point I haven't figured out is the dash/tunnel. It would seem that you have to remove the dash to really do anything to it.

And hello, Stu! Say, using the right tower would mean my ground cable wouldn't be crossing over the top of the battery to the center. Thanks, pal. How is summer in Calgary?

[ardee_selby]

...more seriously thanks for feedback. There have been so many open ended threads where nobody gets to know the outcome, good or bad.

Couldn't agree more Richard. It is disheartening when you offer information or advice and get no feedback whatsoever.

Regards,

Roger, What you said. In addition, without some "closure" on issues, any advice to newbies to "Look in the archives" isn't as helpful as it sounds.

[Robbie693]

The one point I haven't figured out is the dash/tunnel. It would seem that you have to remove the dash to really do anything to it.

Hi Randy,

The dash earth is easy to get too - just pull the centre console and the lower dash bolts are revealed - just a bolt with a nut on the back that can be reached from the side, after removing the side trim of course, this bolt goes through the dash and then a bracket on the chassis, then usually a ring terminal for the earths followed, obviously, by the nut.

Hope this is not what you already know!

Regards

Robbie