More Electric gremlins...

[archigator]

After a few smoking wires (white) in my dash and a melted fusebox on the firewall (see previous post: Fried Ammeter) I replaced the melted wires and fusebox, replaced the ammeter (found not to function anymore), the coil, spark plugs, starter solenoid, and the key ignition switch. I even added a new heavy gage grounding wire from the engine compartment back to the grounding point in the trunk (with appropriate grounding points along the way) for good measure... I could never determine what caused the original conflagration.

Now my Elan starts and runs fine, (no wire smoke) but when I turn off the ignition switch, the engine keeps running! I guess that I must have crossed some wires somewhere, but I really tried to replace each wire methodically one at a time. I have to pull the lead ignition wire off of the coil just to shut 'er down each time. Not cool. Any ideas what the problem might be?

Gary
Miami, FL
'71 Elan Sprint

[Frank Howard]

Gary,

At least a car that won't stop is an easier problem to fix than a car that won't start! I would bet the farm that your problem is in your wiring of the key switch. The power comes into the switch and then goes out through a white wire which first goes through the tach and then to the positive side of the coil. If the car continues to run after shut off, then power must be continuing to flow through the white wire when it's not supposed to. The only way this could happen is if you hooked the white wire to the wrong terminal on the back of the ignition switch.

I'd tell you the correct connections to the switch, but I have re-wired mine differently than it was when it came from the factory. You can figure out which wire is supposed to go where by removing the switch and figuring out which terminal electrically connects to which other terminals when the key is switched to each position. My key has four positions.

0 Off
I Accessories
II Accesssories and Ignition
III Starter and Ignition

The white wire with the red stripe is the starter. Message back if you are having trouble and I will go into more detail. Good luck.

Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota

[archigator]

Thanks Frank,

The ceramic ignition key switch (photo added to my original post above) was numbered at each point on the terminal, but the replacement switch has no such numbers. You're right in that I may have put them back in the wrong order. Both switches have a "notch" on them that guides the switch into the key boss, so I've assumed that the individual terminals are ordered in the same sequence. I'll check on it again this weekend.

It's odd though, I take the key completely out of the ignition, and she still keeps running. Maybe the ignition wires are crossed, and once the engine's fired up, the alternator keeps generating electricity even when the ignition switch is then turned off... I don't know for sure, but I think it's got to be the key switch, as you say. I'll let you know...

Thanks again,

Gary
Miami, FL
'71 Elan Sprint

[Frank Howard]

Gary,

Nice photo. I wish I could do that. Your photo inspired me to take a look at mine. Unfortunately, you have the wires hooked up exactly as I have and I know mine is right because I took it for a drive today. I was hoping that you had made a mistake. You might want to experiment by hooking up the old switch first. I can only guess that your new switch is reversed inside.

As I said in my previous post, the white wire (closest to the camera in your photo) is the ignition wire. If you disconnect it while the engine is running, it should stop. If you connect a test light between ground and that terminal with the wire disconnected, the light should glow when the key is in position II or III. You don't have to test it using the key. A 1/4" square drive will allow you to turn the switch through the four positions while it is out of the key cylinder. The brown/blue wire is 12V coming in. Disconnect all the wires but this one and then touch your test light against each of the remaining terminals as you turn the switch through the four positions.

You'll notice that the brown/blue wire shares a common terminal with the brown wire. The brown wire powers everything that is hot all the time on my car.

The white/purple wire powers everything that requires the key to be in position I (accessories) or II (accessories and ignition).

The white wire powers the ignition. You should get power to this terminal only when the key is in position II (accessories and ignition) or III (ignition and starter).

The white/red wire powers the starter solenoid which in turn powers the starter. You should get power to this terminal only when the key is in position III (starter).

Once you figure out which terminals have power during each of the four switch positions, you will know which wire you want to connect to each terminal. Good luck Gary and let us all know what you find out.

Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota

[twincamman]

my ?lan did that and Europa does that too -----I installed a master off in car to save the wire from fires and stop the car -----I think its running off the alternator lead ----Ill get at it some day-- -ed

[archigator]

Well I checked my key ignition switch this weekend, and it IS wired properly. Therefore the problem has to be from the ignition switch out to the engine loom. I think you are correct in that it must be the alternator that is feeding this circuit and continuing to run the engine even after the ignition switch is turned off. I had rewired the original-type 2-fuse fusebox, and maybe my problem is there.

I'll let you know what I find. I appreciate your insights.

Gary
'71 Elan Sprint
Miami, FL

[Frank Howard]

Gary,

I'm not sure what you do to get the engine to stop, but the next time this happens, try pulling the white wire out of the ignition switch. If it stops when you do this, you will know the switch is continuing to supply 12V to the coil even though the key is in position "0", therefore, something is wrong with the switch. Let us know what happens.

Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota

[archigator]

I pulled out the white wire from the ignition switch... she keeps on running

Gary
'71 Elan Sprint
Miami, FL

[Frank Howard]

Gary,

OK, so the next thing you should do is pull the white wire from the + side of the coil (or the ballast resistor if you have one). Then connect that end of the wire to the end that you disconnected from the ignition switch via a continuity tester. In other words, a powered test light to see if the ends of the white wire are indeed the same wire. If the light does not glow, then these are two different wires. In that case, you will have to start removing the electrical tape at the coil, tracing just where that white wire goes. If it does go through the firewall, you will probably have to remove the dash to find the origin, but you could try to trace it by removing the seat, the steering wheel, and the underdash trim while assuming the "Lotus position".

Another test would be to turn off the ignition and hook a 12V test light to ground. Now touch the test light to the white wire that you have disconnected from the + side of the coil (or the ballast resistor if you have one). If the light goes on, something is feeding 12V to that wire and you will have to begin your trace by unraveling the electrical tape.

This should keep you busy for awhile. Let us know your results.

Frank Howard
'71 S4 SE
Minnesota

[archigator]

The white wire at the coil goes to the back of the tach. You're saying that this white wire must be getting fed directly by the alternator, even after the ignition switch is turned off.. therefore this white wire is being feed by the alternator somewhere "upstream" of the tach and any any switching mechanism. Correct?

The wire that melted behind my dash was a white wire also. Hmmm...

Gary
'71 Elan Sprint
Miami, FL

[Frank Howard]

Gary,

You didn't identify the person you were talking to and your post follows mine, so I will assume you were talking to me. I did not say that the white wire must be getting fed directly by the alternator. Somebody else said that. Carry out the tests that I suggested in my last post and let us know the results. Good luck.

Frank Howard

[archigator]

Frank,

I did what you had previosly suggested. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. The white wire at the ignition switch is not hot when the switch is off and the engine is not running.

Since there are three wires coming out of the alternator, I figured one of them must somehow be feeding the white wire circuit to the coil when the engine is running and the ignition switch is turned off. So I disconnected the thin "sensor" wire from the alternator to the "hot/ignition" side of the fuse box (where the white wire to the ignition switch is also connected). Now the ammeter doesn't appear to be operating (showing neither a + or - charge), but when I turn off the ignition... the engine does stop! So now the engine starts and stops normally via the ignition switch. If the ammeter doesn't read properly (although it is NOS and I know otherwise works properly) and everything else works, I can live with that.

Does anyone else have the smallest of the three ammeter wires connected directly to the + side of the fusebox where the white wire to the ignition switch is connected? Thanks for all your help.

Gary
'71 Elan Sprint
Miami, FL

[Frank Howard]

Gary,

Thanks for the clarification. I did not know that any Elans came from the factory with alternators. I thought Lotus was the last car company in the world to ditch the generator when they finished making their last Sprint in 1973. Did your car come from the factory with an alternator or did someone upgrade the car to an alternator?

I upgraded mine and like your car, added an ammeter as well. When I did the conversion, I refered to the Europa Special wiring diagram because the car came from the factory with both of these items.

According the the diagram, there are three wires coming from the alternator. The heavy brown/purple wire goes to the positive side of the battery. This can be connected at the battery side of the solenoid.

The smaller brown/yellow wire goes to the ignition light.

The wire you are concerned with is a smaller brown/white wire (or it could be another color if someone did an alternator conversion). This wire goes to one side of the ammeter and then to the ignition switch. At the ignition switch terminal, it continues to the fuse box, but as a brown wire.

I hope you can determine if your car is wired this way. Let us know.

[Mohe]

Gary

I had a very similar sounding proplem on my totally rebuilt baby Elan. I fitted an alternator and re-wired most of the car.

The mistake I made may help you and it was this: I by-passed the ignition warning light.

The feed to the alternator is a thin wire that tells the alternator to generate a charge. The charge runs down the fat wire to the battery.

The alternator feed wire should start from an ignition live (probably off your ignition switch) and run through the ignition warning light en route to the alternator. I by-passed the ignition warning light by connecting the ignition switch directly to the alternator feed. The engine kept running even when turned off. Once I realised my error I ran the alternator feed from ignition live through the ignition warning light and then on to the alternator. Everything worked fine. When I switch off the engine the lamp puts a load on the feed wire for long enough to stop the alternator generating current.

To check for a problem in this area disconnect the thin feedwire from the alternator. The engine should start and stop properly even though there will be no generated current back to the battery. If it does start and stop you are homing in on the problem.

I hope this helps

geoff

[wojeepster]

The way the ignition warning light works is that it has 12v coming to it (switched) from ign. With alternator not turning and key ON alternator supplies ground. Light is on. Now when you start the car the voltage from this warning wire supplies the initial voltage to get things started in the alternator. (Generators do not need this the initial voltage, it is supplied by the residual magnetism in the pole pieces. It is also why genertors have to reach a medium rpm before they start putting out voltage.) Once alternator starts putting out voltage there is 12v on both sides of the light (no ground for the light) light goes out. So warning wire needs to be switched to shut off alternator, and power to coil needs to be switched to shut off spark. Key OFF no power to coil, no power to warning light. Key ON power to warning light, power to coil (on the opposite side of the coil from where the wire goes to distributor) Distributor supplies make and brake ground. Now coil needs power in both the ON and START position, (if you want spark in both positions) Warning wire just need power in the ON position. Hope this helps.