Grinding gears!

[dgently]

My replacement starter worked well for a year then began making horrible grinding noises while turning the engine some time back, and a little later the pinion gear broke off.

It?s a Denso-style pre-engaged starter with a 9-tooth pinion. The pinion was pretty beaten up, about half the tooth height ground off the front half of its length (which points to the back of the car). It replaced the original Lucas 9-tooth, and I've no reason to think my ring gear is anything other than the normal 110-tooth (1968 +2)

I sourced a replacement pinion with ancillary bits (spring, collar etc), (9-tooth and visually identical) and my friendly local auto electrician (lets call him Frank) fitted it to the starter for me. Frank was adamant my ring gear must be badly worn, loose or damaged somewhere, so I checked it carefully all the way around. No damage found, and the wear seemed reasonable (see attached photo).

Starter with new pinion was noisy from the outset, and now its grinding without turning the engine. The engine isn?t seized, feels 100% normal when you push it in gear.

I?m out of ideas, and I can?t summon the will to pull that starter again. It is seated perfectly and tightly bolted to the bellhousing, there?s zero play in the shaft, I?ve treble checked that my (many) pinions are the right (29.15mm) diameter, and I everyone I?ve shown this picture to agrees that the ring gear looks fine.

Why oh why won?t it turn that ring gear?

[danielmo]

At a glance, that ring gear does not look like a 110 tooth one, but I could be wrong. Can you mark the flywheel and count the teeth while in the car?

[nmauduit]

is it adequately aligned so that the pinion engage smoothly but snug? not so easy to have a peek but maybe worth it to help diagnose where it sticks (I assume operation is good when unmounted, smooth and strong)...

good luck !

[types26/36]

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[Robbie693]

Or maybe remove the pinion cover in the bell housing and observe what happens while trying to turn the engine over...?

[Chancer]

Starter with new pinion was noisy from the outset, and now its grinding without turning the engine. .

Sounds like the internal clutch on the bendix is slipping, probably not what you want to hear but I would take out the starter, clamp it in a vice and apply power. While it is spining jam some wood on to the teeth and see if the teeth stop tuning while the starter is still turning.

No bendix on a pre-engaged starter but what you say otherwise is valid, if the noise is more of a squawking than a grinding then it could be the one way roller ramp clutch that is slipping Under load, it will still probably have enough drive to shred your bit of wood doing the test though.

If it were a series production car that hadnt been molested I would say it was that but most of these aftermarket starters are very hit and miss on pinion engagement depth so check that first

[types26/36]

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[bob_rich]

Hi

I would definitely try to count the teeth on the flywheel. When I had my engine rebuilt I had a problem in that a 132 tooth ring gear was incorrectly fitted and after a short time the teeth on the flywheel ring were ground off and engine would not start. Engine was pulled an then a 110 gear was fitted and the wasp pre-engager started worked fine. Symptoms were just like yours worked for a bit them grinding graunching and not cranking of engine.

this was just an organisation cock up between engine builder and me after fix, had no problem since

hope this helps best of luck

Bob

[Chancer]

Peace be with you type 26/36.

It was an innocous comment, or so I thought! It was not my intention to offend you but to offer help to another forum member so please accept my apology.

[dgently]

OK, I went under to try to get a look at it from the hole opposite (on the back of the bell-housing). I had my kid turn the starter, and I could see that the starter pinion was spinning freely while the ring gear was only occasionaly tuning a bit (maybe a ? turn)

I hooked up a positive feed to the shaft actuator (that's supposed pre-engage the pinion) without activating the starter so I could get a look at that (see pic below).

I honestly don't understand what I'm looking at. The engagement depth seems OK (top of the pinion is ~1mm beyond the back of the ring gear) but it looks misaligned, as if the shaft centre should be 2mm or 3mm closer to the ring gear centre.

The starter itself seems correctly centred, the pinion diameter is 29.15mm, so how on earth can my ring gear be that far away?

Just to reiterate, engine will start and sounds fine. Nothing could be disastrously wrong, right?

[ericbushby]

The starter pinion teeth should be engaged deeper with the ring gear teeth than that. Further use will only cause more damage.
Is there something wrong with the mounting of the starter motor in it`s mounting ring. From the photo, it does not look to be centred correctly. It could just be the angle of the photo.
I suggest you take it out again and check it over.
Eric in Burnley

[dgym]

Sorry to revive a thread but..
I had exactly the same experience with you where my new high torque starter (from british starters) worked ok for some time but just recently started grinding and now can't turn the engine over. .. The starter pinion has deep gouges all around.
I was wondering if you ever found a solution dgently?
I've been looking at replacement pinions perhaps with ten teeth instead of nine hoping the gap might be reduced but it's difficult without knowing what the starter was originally before it was modified for the elan.

best regards,
-Jim

[gjz30075]

Fit the oem Lucas starter to keep you going for now. Looks like the clocking is incorrect, in both
yours and the OPs.

[mark030358]

I took my Brise pre engaged 9 tooth pre-engaged starter off as it did not engage properly. I have just had a ring gear fitted with wuth chamfered lead in edges for both the standard Lucas and the Brise sould I ever refit it. I also found the contact patch on the ring gear to be smaller with the Brise too.

cheers
Mark

[RichardHawkins]

dgently,

I am not sure what I am looking at from your photos. There should be a thin metal plate about 1 to 1.5mm thick between the engine and the gearbox. This plate has two holes that engage with the dowls that align the engine with the gearbox, and also a hole that the front end of the starter motor should engage with. One of the purposes of this plate is to position the axis of the starter motor relative to the axis of the crankshaft so that the pinion and the ring gear mesh correctly. I have seen engines with the dowls missing, the plate missing, and the plate badly damaged. Access is not easy, and the starter relatively heavy. Having got the starter approximately in the correct position with the bolts in but loose, the starter should then push into place and engage into its position with a clunk and feel secure, the bolts should then be tightened.

Our cars are about 50 years old, and may have been badly treated when about 10 years old by owners who could afford to buy them but not afford to maintain them. You may need to check lots of things.

I hope this helps,

Richard Hawkins