Voigt 5sp box in a +2?

[HCA]

I have ploughed through 21 pages of the current thread of installing a Voigt box for pointers, but of course the contributors all have the two seater Elan...

Has anyone put a Voigt box and bell housing into a +2 with a Spyder chassis? Is it necessary to modify anything on the frame? I would rather not lift the body off the frame, so if there are any cuts to be made, can these be done to a pattern that can be applied in situ? Also, (assuming the body and frame do not have to be split) is it best to mate engine to the Voigt bell housing after installation, or can it be made before and lower everything as one?

Thanks!

[Foxie]

I fitted the first Voigts 5-speed into my Spyder chassised Plus 2 fifteen years ago. I was able to fit it without lifting the body. I had to make a few mods to the chassis, mainly cut-outs on the central web, mostly around the speedo drive, and slightly crushing a side brace tube.

I also had to grind off several areas and webs on the gearbox casing.

One of the awkward items was the 'top-hat' housing the selector detent spring & plunger mounted in the middle of the top cover plate, which made fitting removing the assembled engine/gearbox unit difficult, as it caught on the transmission tunnel.

I sent drawingsof my mods to Alan Voigts, and he has incorporated these mods into later versions, including moving the selector detent to the side of the gearbox, so you should have no problem fitting the engine/gear box assembled as a unit, but the new position of the detent interferes with the Mk 1 Spyder chassis.

When Spyder developed their Zetec chassis, it was modified to create more room around the MT75 gearbox, which also suits the Voigts box.

A big advantage of the Voigts box is the concentric clutch release, which enables the extrnal slave cylinder to be eliminated.

I later fitted an electronic Smiths speedo, operated by a pick up on the diff triggered by the drive shaft spider arms which saves an awful lot of bother with the speedo drive.

I have a correspondent in Lancashire who is shortly taking delivery of a Voigts for his 'baby' Elan. We might be able to post up some more info.

I was speaking to Alan not too long ago. He is 80 years old, and had just returned from a 30 mile bike ride !

[HCA]

Thanks Foxie, this is really helpful.

I too will be using an electronic speedometer, does this mean that I can ignore any modifications to the plate?

Please tell me more about having to crush a side brace tube - will you share where and how much to crush please?

[Foxie]

Using an electronic speedo will mean you don't have to cut back the chassis web so much to fit the speedo angle drive.

I have attached pics which show the high points, and drawings of mods required ( back in 2004 )

The crushing of the 3rd diagonal tube was done with a piece of angle iron on the outside and a vice-grips, to give a little more internal clearance.

Alan Voigts has modified his conversion significantly since, and Spyder have modified their chassis. One mod that Spyder did was to replace the tubular diagonal on the third bay with a sheet steel panel on the outside surface to give more internal clearance.

So a good starting point would be to establish which version of each you have.

[HCA]

Very useful Foxie - thanks again!

I just lifted my car and the chassis is as yours, ie pre the sheet steel plate. Looking at it in the cold light of day, I think I better think of splitting off the body. A mild irritant as I have just installed the rear upholstery!

There is precious little room to make any mods underneath, so you did extremely well doing what you did!

The steel plate, does this replace the two diagonal circular tubes and the centre box tube, or is it just the centre box tube upright? I guess if I have the body off, it will be obvious.

Jumping ahead - prop shaft. is it the original, or a new one?

[greg40green]

Evening Hal , Foxie .
I think from Foxies quote that he is aware of someone in Lancashire fitting a Voights box , this may be myself .
I'm lucky as I'm building up a bare chassis for my 2 seater Elan so will be able to access all areas without issues .

[greg40green]

Evening Hal , Foxie .
I think from Foxies quote that he is aware of someone in Lancashire fitting a Voights box , this may be myself .
I'm lucky as I'm building up a bare chassis for my 2 seater Elan so will be able to access all areas without issues .

[Foxie]

Very useful Foxie - thanks again!

<Snip>
The steel plate, does this replace the two diagonal circular tubes and the centre box tube, or is it just the centre box tube upright? I guess if I have the body off, it will be obvious.

Jumping ahead - prop shaft. is it the original, or a new one?

The steel plate replaces the diagonal tube in the third bay from the front LHS.

Voigts supplied a new drive shaft with the kit in 2004.

I mentioned the problem with the "top hat" selector detent, which made fitting the engine/gearbox assembly as a unit. (See Voigts original brochure pic attached )

The following is a long story.

In my efforts to eliminate this problem, I tried reducing the height of the "top hat". I eventually contacted Alan Voigts for a new "top hat" for further modifying. He advised me that they had solved this problem by moving the detent unit to the side of the gearbox. He offered to fit this mod to my gearbox.

I assented to this, and removed the gearbox to send it to Liverpool. In my efforts to meet up with a hillclimb friend with a lorry going on the ferry to Liverpool, I dropped a valve on my wife's BMW 316, and wrecked the engine, within a few miles of the ferry. I couldn't get a taxi in time. So I when I had the car recovered I sent it to Alan by courier. After many weeks of no hear, I contacted Alan. He had lost all my contact details.

When the gearbox eventually was delivered, I saw to my horror that the detent was not fitted to the side of the main box, but on the side of the tailhousing. It was now hard up against the diagonal chassis tube.
I had to do a body lift and cut out the obstructing diagonal tube. To make up for the missing diagonal I sent a pattern to Spyder to make up a flanged panel with good inside clearance and welded it into the chassis.

(I cut a hole in this panel and in theside of the transmission tunnel fibre glass so I could adjust the spring loading from iside the car, it's quite sensitive to the gearchange)

Now everything is fine.

( The last pic is the Spyder Zetec / MT 75 chassis from their website )

Pics attached,

[Foxie]

This wouldn't upload with my last post.

[HCA]

Thanks again Foxie - so helpful. I can see now that it has to be a body off job which is a minor irritant..

I am getting everything together and soon will place an order on Voigt - providing stupid things like house maintenance will go away!

[Foxie]

It's possible Alan Voigts could supply the unmodified casing with the original cover plate. This would mean having to fit /remove the gearbox and engine separately, but would save you a body lift. (It is possible to fit the top hat to the cover plate after installing the engine /gearbox assembled, but it is extremely awkward )

I have pasted a copy of a report I wrote in 2004 for what it's worth, it wouldn't upload for some reason.



Fitting the 5 sp Sierra T9 gearbox to Lotus Elan +2S with Spyder spaceframe chassis.

The engine, complete with cylinder head and exhaust manifold, clutch and gearbox were assembled, and trial fit attempted to establish where clearances where required. The assembly would not fit at all due to lack of clearance at speedo drive bulge on GB rhs and chassis web and h/brake cable lead, and also the lower left hand bolt boss on gearbox tail housing and lhs chassis diagonal (1” circular tube), and also horizontal flange rear lhs tail housing.

It was feared that the chassis would need major alterations, requiring a body lift. This was not necessary, although the diagonal chassis tube adjacent to the lower left-hand capscrew might be squeezed to an oval rather then a circular section if the body was off the chassis, see photo 1 and drg fig. 2

After many trial fittings, clearances were eventually ground out of the central chassis web as per drawing Fig. 1. The sides of the web are 25 x 20mm channel section, being ground out to 25 x 10 where indicated. The handbrake cable lead was also ground back from the front to leave a small circular section just at the extreme rear, as this fouled during fitting. The selector detent spring & housing were removed during installation, and fitted before final mounting done.

On the gearbox, the boss on the lower left tail housing to gearbox capscrew was ground back inline with the capscrew head, see photo 3.

About 1/16” of metal was removed from side the speedo gear cylindrical bulge. This bulge sits exactly in the middle of the U - section chassis side member.

About 5mm was ground off the lhs flange on the tail housing where it passes through the web, see photo 3. The sharp ends on the two side and bottom flanges on the tail housing casting where faired off to avoid catching when fitting the gearbox into the chassis.

The central projection on the bottom of the main box to tail housing sandwich plate was cut off flush to avoid interfering with the exhaust pipe.

The gearbox mount was made up as per drawing fig 3/photo 4. A 25mm hole was cut as per drawing to allow access to the main mounting bolt, to facilitate removal/ installation. Some slotting was required on the chassis mounting holes to permit transverse adjustment to maximise clearances. The sides of the rubber mount required to be ground off to clear chassis rails.

The gearlever as supplied had approx 15 degrees bend forward on the main stub, and the top section was welded to the front side of the collar. When fitted the lever could not even be moved forward to the neutral position, as it was hard against the dashboard. The top section was removed, straightened using heat, and fitted with the weld to the rear. The stub was eventually bent approx 15 degrees rearwards, being cold worked as the pivot ball is plastic. See drawing fig. 4

I brought the bleed line directly forward from the opening in the bell housing and then across the rear of the engine. The bleeder bracket required to be bevelled off on the inside to clear the weld on top of the exhaust pipe. A new bleeder hole was drilled at a centre distance of 1 ¼” from the rear stud, to bring it closer to the engine, as it was fouling the bulkhead on installation. The bracket was straightened out so the bleeder is almost at the same orientation as the stud. See photo 2.
Sean Murray July 2004

[HCA]

Hi Foxie - speaking with Mr Voigt a bit further on the subject, he says that my chassis does not need modification for his box other than the speedometer bit if I use a mechanical unit.... I did not mention the side webs you had trouble with and wonder if he has modified anything further? I emphasised that it was a +2. (Thinking back on the conversation though, I did not specify it was a Spyder chassis, let alone an older one)

I am in a situation where I have never rebuilt a twincam, and planned mine rebuilt in the Uk and shipped out together with the Voigt package, but since brexit, this is absolutely fraught with problems. Then with my final talks with Alan before I place my order, he has suggested I get the car to him, he sends off the engine and fits his box on return and installs the whole lot... I then questioned the chassis mod you mentioned above that might need a body-off. He said not necessary.. Anyway, he is going to put together a price to remove and fit a powerplant, which if affordable, and it works, then I need not worry about any of the pains you had...and might avoid a body-off that I really do not want to do!

Maybe I should call him back and explain my chassis?