Lotus Elan

Gearbox Baulk rings

PostPost by: kerryblu » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:20 am

Hi all,
My car jumps out of 1st & 3rd, looking on ebay there seems to be two types of baulk rings to fit the elan, early and late 2000 E. My car was reg. sep 1970. vin starts 7001. I don't wont to buy the wrong ones, also going to buy bearings seals & gaskets.
So which type do I need?

with thanks

Gerald.
S4 70 o e w.
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PostPost by: ardee_selby » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:58 am

Gerald,

Gary has given info on differences in this thread. HIH

elan-f15/synchro-hub-alignment-t23895.html

But...have you eliminated other possible causes of jumping out of gear?

See the "checklist" (Section 4) here: http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/lsb_ge ... ding.shtml

Cheers & good luck - Richard

P.S. How worn are the selector forks? (Ref: elan-f14/gearbox-selector-fork-rebuilding-t24993.html)
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PostPost by: kerryblu » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:29 pm

thanks for the reply, I did read the section 4 prior to my post and nothing is fouling the gear stick. My car is on the road at the moment i just hold the leaver in place on 1st &3rd, hope to do the box in the winter, so I thought i'd get the parts 1st, but if the selectors are worn will have to deal with that then, thats why I need to make sure I'm buying the right baulk rings for my car.

Gerald
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PostPost by: ardee_selby » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:24 pm

Assuming you still have the original box, I believe the ones you want (snap ring mainshaft '69 on) are:

045F 7107 - 1st/2nd synchro ring (2-off)
045F 7108 - 3rd/4th synchro ring (2-off)

Ref: DB catalogue (as mentioned in other threads)

This thread has more on box differences including a photo of synchro (baulk) rings (per Gary):

elan-f14/speed-gearbox-early-late-difference-t21521.html

Good Luck - Richard

P.S. By way of comparison:

Rings.jpg and
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PostPost by: AHM » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:56 pm

My advice is to buy the parts when you know what you need.
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PostPost by: ardee_selby » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:01 pm

AHM wrote:My advice is to buy the parts when you know what you need.


Yes, I agree. Unless the synchro was weak before it started jumping out of gear (and it may have been) I would be looking elsewhere first. i.e. worn selector forks, rails & indent/detent springs etc etc.

Cheers - Richard
Last edited by ardee_selby on Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: kerryblu » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:24 pm

lots of info. thanks, Richard you mention indent springs, the 3 that holds ball bearings on the 3 rails, when I got my car in bits & boxes the gearbox had the cover off, the b/bearings was there but no springs, so I put in what fitted best, I thought the P O looked in there to see if he could see why it was jumping out of gear. It seems to be a big job to take out the engine & box to put 3 springs in then put it all together again to find out it was the baulk rings. Would've liked to have all the bits ready for a quick change around and put her back on the road as soon as poss.
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PostPost by: ardee_selby » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:57 pm

kerryblu wrote: ...when I got my car in bits & boxes the gearbox had the cover off, the b/bearings was there but no springs, so I put in what fitted best, I thought the P O looked in there to see if he could see why it was jumping out of gear


Have a look at this thread re:springs & possible spacers to achieve correct load i.e. the 0.335"- 0.375" quoted.

elan-f15/three-rail-detent-ball-shim-t16974.html

Note last entry "This is in the section about jumping out of gear"

Cheers - Richard
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PostPost by: europatek » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:14 am

The synchro rings are the clutch to allow speeds to be matched and gears changed. They don't hold the gear in place. The most likely cause of the problem is worn synchro hubs and/or blocker bars. Inspect carfully where the gear hub teeth mesh into the hub. Also look for the depth of mesh. The blocker bars can have the tops worn down.
Possible causes in my experience.
- insifficenet depth of mesh into the hub
- worn hubs
- worn blocker bars
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PostPost by: AHM » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:14 am

europatek wrote:The synchro rings are the clutch to allow speeds to be matched and gears changed. They don't hold the gear in place. The most likely cause of the problem is worn synchro hubs and/or blocker bars. Inspect carfully where the gear hub teeth mesh into the hub. Also look for the depth of mesh. The blocker bars can have the tops worn down.
Possible causes in my experience.
- insifficenet depth of mesh into the hub
- worn hubs
- worn blocker bars


I agree!

And you wont know what you need till you take it to bits, and that may not be available, so you may need to fit a different type.
I've just rebuilt 2 gearboxes and had to use a mixture of early/late (in sets) on both. Beware cheap synchro hubs they are shocking quality.
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PostPost by: Tonyw » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:18 pm

Gerald,

It is very unlikly that the synchro or baulk rings are causing you gears to "jump out" these rings just allow myou to change gear without "crunching" as others have said it is more likly the blocker bars. If there is excessise end play in the gear hubs that may cause gear jump out. The detents and detent spings could also be the cause, the springs put quite a lot of pressure onto the detents so if you have the wrong springs that could also be the cause of your problem, it couls also be a combination of all of the above.

If your budget runs to it new baulk rings, blocker bars, blocker bar springs, detent springs and new circlips & bearing will probably fix the issues but you really will not know until you pull it apart.

Regards,

Tonyw
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PostPost by: kerryblu » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:07 pm

Thanks all for your help, there seems to be quite a few things I will need, some of them are on ebay at the moment, so that will give me a idea of how much its going to cost. Will wait for the winter and strip her down then to see what I need.
Thanks
Gerald.
S4 70 O E W
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PostPost by: ardee_selby » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:49 pm

Gerald

I think you are wise in view of the guys comments above.

An important issue was raised by Simon though i.e. the quality of pattern parts!

"Beware cheap synchro hubs they are shocking quality"

Don't know if same applies to other parts. Selector forks? But no doubt others can share experiences & advise on best sources.

I was fortunate to get all the internals when Halewood were still making them! :wink:

Cheers - Richard
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PostPost by: Elan45 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:08 pm

Gerald,

I think it's too much a coincidence that it jumps out of 1st and 3rd. Sounds like something not allowing the shift lever to push the rails and then the forks far enough forward. Just recently, someone's gearbox issue was as simple as the gear lever cap had unscrewed somewhat. After all, most 3-rail Ford boxes, such as fitted to Elans begin jumping out of 4th, not the lower gears.

I'd unscrew the shifter cap, pull the lever out and examine these parts. I'd also not delay too long your teardown if it really needs it, because some parts for these boxes are getting very scarce. Every time your box pops out of gear, there is wear not only on your syncro rings, but also on the outer slider of the syncro hub and the dog engagement teeth on the individual speed gears. Luckily, someone has begun production of the shift forks, which for several years had become unobtainable, but no one is making the gears and hubs.

Roger
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PostPost by: kerryblu » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:52 pm

Hi,
Going to Spain on Wed for a wedding, when I get back I will have a look at the shifter and see if something is stopping the two forward gears going in.
again thanks.
P.S. I did like the cost of the ?89 hubb ass. on ebay thought it would be worth buying just for the baulk rings blocker bars and c clips.

Gerald.
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