Lotus Elan

driveshaft donuts Quinton Hazell Part No.

PostPost by: marode » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:49 pm

Does anyone know the Quinton Hazell (QH) Part No. of the driveshaft hardy spicers? Are those the same as in a Triumph Spitfire? I found these info, but don?t know if its true.

All U-joints, Type U-50 Hardy Spicer K5 GR150, TR Spitfire; Napa 344 or 341

I know there are some great CV-driveshafts available, but for this time I decided to fix new donuts. Someone had upgraded my driveshafts to one side CV / other side hardy spicers - not my decision, but driveshafts seem to be pretty new.

Thanks!
Last edited by marode on Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: UAB807F » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:28 am

I can't help on the spitfire question but I seem to remember they were the same size as those on a Hillman Imp we owned. In fact I'd take the donuts off the elan and use the best ones on the imp - the things we used to do in the olden days :roll:

The Imp competition donuts looked identical to the Elan sprint donuts, but I can't confirm if they were the same rubber mix or not. At the time I had a hardness meter and they looked fairly similar but of course hardness isn't everything with elastomers. (they worked fine on the Imp though ! )
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PostPost by: Sea Ranch » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:20 am

I'll ask Ken at Dave Bean in CA next time I talk to him. I've a feeling they are the same as the Triumph units (I ran a GT-6+ in the '70s).
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PostPost by: marode » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:57 am

UAB807F wrote:The Imp competition donuts looked identical to the Elan sprint donuts


and Elan Sprint donuts are the same as Plus 2 ?
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:13 am

marode wrote:Does anyone know the Quinton Hazell (QH) Part No. of the driveshaft hardy spicers? Are those the same as in a Triumph Spitfire? I found these info, but don?t know if its true.

All U-joints, Type U-50 Hardy Spicer K5 GR150, TR Spitfire; Napa 344 or 341

I know there are some great CV-driveshafts available, but for this time I decided to fix new donuts. Someone had upgraded my driveshafts to one side CV / other side hardy spicers - not my decision, but driveshafts seem to be pretty new.

Thanks!


That's a very strange solution, I wonder what the reasoning was behind that idea?
Normally a shaft has 2 U.J's, one at each end.
Due to their configuration U.J's produce some weird rotational acceleration & deceleration within themselves, which becomes more pronounced with increased shaft deflection.
With one at each end of the shaft this effect is largely corrected with one U.J. "practically" canceling out the effect of the other.

Have you considered fitting a 2nd CV joint?
Those work in a different way & don't produce, what could be described as a mild Kangaroo effect found in U.J's.

Cheers
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PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:56 am

Marode

From my old note book

MUJ 106,QL 102,KSL/1,HS152,HS194

John :wink:
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PostPost by: UAB807F » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:51 pm

marode wrote:
UAB807F wrote:The Imp competition donuts looked identical to the Elan sprint donuts


and Elan Sprint donuts are the same as Plus 2 ?


Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have called them "sprint" donuts, it's probably not the correct term. However I would imagine so, I thought they fitted the later donut to all Elans after they had been introduced, and as far as I know it became the standard service replacement from then on even though "standard" donuts were readily available. As an aside my 1968 S3 came with the later donuts fitted and that was in the early 70s when I bought it.

It might be worth bearing in mind though that the Triumph fans are following the same route as Lotus owners in moving towards CV or UJ conversions, stating the poor quality of modern replacements and short lifespans as the reason for the move. When I bought my CV kit last year, Sue Miller wouldn't supply the pattern rotoflex couplings because she said they were such poor quality.
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PostPost by: StoatWithToast » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:05 pm

I think the spyder units are CV one side and a donut the other (Alex has fitted them). They keep some of the deflection and and feel of the original, but the CV means they don't get deflected as much so should last longer.

AFAIK the donuts on the Elan are the same as on the GT6/Vitesse but I don't have any manuals with me now to confirm this. Not sure about the plus 2 / later ones with the metal plates around the bolt holes.
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PostPost by: Craig Elliott » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:43 pm

I have a feeling that earlier Spyder driveshafts had a UJ on one end and a dount at the other... could be wrong though.

C
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:06 pm

StoatWithToast wrote:I think the spyder units are CV one side and a donut the other (Alex has fitted them). They keep some of the deflection and and feel of the original, but the CV means they don't get deflected as much so should last longer.

AFAIK the donuts on the Elan are the same as on the GT6/Vitesse but I don't have any manuals with me now to confirm this. Not sure about the plus 2 / later ones with the metal plates around the bolt holes.



Yes the Spyder drive shafts are as you describe.
I bought them together with their RSC (rear suspension).
I didn't like the look of either of them so they were never fitted.
Spyder uses one donut to retain some so called compliance in the drive train.

Nevertheless suspension movement should not change if either donuts or CV joints are fitted so I don't follow the statement that the CV reduces the deflection.

nix f?r ungut
John
Last edited by GrUmPyBoDgEr on Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: gerrym » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:50 pm

What John is describing is the angular velocity variation caused by a single Hooke's joint. A constant velocity joint is as the name suggests, capable of providing a constant output velocity for a constant input velocity.

With a single Hooke's joint in series with a CV joint, there will be angular accelerations which will result in angular accelerations, cyclic forces, stress and eventually given the high cycles numbers, failure of some component or other.

Sounds like a very good idea to throw these particular driveshafts in the bin and get either a CV conversion or driveshafts with a proper paired (and phased) set of Hooke's joints.

Anyway, care to post a photograph of these strange 'shafts.

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PostPost by: Robbie693 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:39 pm

UAB807F wrote:
Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have called them "sprint" donuts, it's probably not the correct term.


Contemporary road tests described the new uprated donuts as "sprint couplings" so I guess it is the correct term..

Craig Elliott wrote:I have a feeling that earlier Spyder driveshafts had a UJ on one end and a dount at the other... could be wrong though.

C


Craig is correct - I had them on my previous Plus 2. Perhaps when Marode said Hardy Spicers he was refering to donuts? Marode?

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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:21 am

gerrym wrote:What John is describing is the angular velocity variation caused by a single Hooke's joint. A constant velocity joint is as the name suggests, capable of providing a constant output velocity for a constant input velocity.

With a single Hooke's joint in series with a CV joint, there will be angular accelerations which will result in angular accelerations, cyclic forces, stress and eventually given the high cycles numbers, failure of some component or other.

Sounds like a very good idea to throw these particular driveshafts in the bin and get either a CV conversion or driveshafts with a proper paired (and phased) set of Hooke's joints.

Anyway, care to post a photograph of these strange 'shafts.

Regards
Gerry



Thanks for the terminology nudge Gerry; my mind often goes blank when searching for the right words.
No it's not an age thing; I've always been blessed in that way, but do admit that it got worse with the bi-lingual way of life.

On reflection some pretty weird things occur in drive shafts with hooks joints.
Some things you pick up as a kid when playing with bits of Meccano.
I wonder how today's kids gain that sort of experience on their play stations? :wink:

As is quite often the case, we've all offered advice on the question without a reaction from the original poster; hey ho :roll:

Cheers
John
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PostPost by: marode » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:55 am

Robbie693 wrote:
Perhaps when Marode said Hardy Spicers he was refering to donuts? Marode?


Robbie, your right, I reffered to Hardy Spicers donuts. I mixed up the terms as we use to call the donuts "hardy-discs" here. Know I learned, there is a company called Hardy Spicer, building UJ?s.

Anyway, I?m just trying to get spare parts in germany, before ordering in UK, saves postage and the usual two weeks british "response time" ;-)

@ john: I got the following number salad from my part supplier, this should be Quinton Hazell Part No?s of donuts they sell for other british cars, for e.g. Triumph.

QL8000
QHPL8000
GCD301
152273

can?t hardly see any similarity to your notes.

I`ll order some GT6 / Vitesse, donuts, hope they?ll fit and will make a picture of my strange driveshafts for further discussion. Thanks for help!
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PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:36 am

Now are we talking donuts or U/Js as my numbers are for U/Js..

John :wink:
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