Elan Restoration Costs

[andyelan]

Hi Everyone

I've seen here on numerous occasions that people consider Elans to be expensive to restore, especially with the fiberglass bodywork and the twin cam engine. However is this really true? and are we really compairing like with like?

On the face of it early Lotus seem like very cheap and cheerful cars but of course they're not. When new they were very expensive, sophisticated pieces of kit. They were after all only one step away from contemporary racing cars.

So I ask this. How does the cost of restoring an elan shell compaire with say repair of a rusty E Type monocoque or early Porsche 911. A friend of mine, for example, has just had a GT6 professionally restored and althouigh it's a lovley job, he's spent an absolute fortune on the bodywork.

Also, perhaps some of the people here could say how the cost of rebuilding a Twin Can compaires with say a BDA or Coventry Climex FWE.

Please don't think from these comments that I'm made of money, I'm most certanly not. It's just the bottom line is doing up old cars is a very expencive hobby, whatever they are, and in the big wide scheme of things, it's my opinion, early Lotus are at the cheaper end of the cost range.

Andy

[Gordon Sauer]

With the body, it's the time involved in getting rid of stress cracks that is so time consuming and not comparable to any metal working--it's about all the same from the primers on but the grinding, fiberglassing and smoothing prior to priming is what adds up--maybe it would not be that different compared to a severely hail damaged metal car! Gordon Sauer

[stugilmour]

Interesting topic. Just going through costing the restoration of my Plus 2 now. No experience with other British stuff or Porsche, but quite a bit with BMW. Local mechanic mentioned a none too special TR250 in his shop the other day has had $50K thrown at it!

In general I do not find the Lotus costs outrageous. So far I am not dealing with internal engine parts/service, so maybe I am in for some additional costs down the road that will feel high. Very pleased so far with parts availability for Lotus, although shipping costs to Canada are pretty stiff.

As a point of comparison, the general number for re-build of the M88 3.5 litre twin cam six in my '87 BMW M6 as $US15K to $US20K, which tends to exceed the market value of the car in good to excellent condition. Seems pretty consistent with Lotus to me! Some other costs for the BMW for comparo (I did not do all of these!):

- new front fender (wing) ~$US1800 each!
- Rust removal at rear wheel well area, tail lamps ~$US3000.
- Tail lamp assemblies $US250 each.
- Stock quality carpet set unobtainium.
- Rubber components for bumper ends ~$US1500.
- Rubber spoiler piece $US600.
- Total glass out re-paint $US10K to $US15K
- Brake system overhaul $US1500

BMW's more contemporary to the Lotus (e.g. 2002, 3.0 CSi without fuel injection, ABS, etc.) are extraordinarily expensive to restore, generally due to required rust repair. Big problem is the uni body must be repaired to end up with anything descent. Would generally cost $US15K minimum to go through one of these cars correctly. Pretty competitive with a Lotus frame replacement and repaint I expect.

I think same issue as Lotus, where restoration cost rapidly exceeds market value of the car.

Cheers!

[cabc26b]

Hi Andy -

I have a good friend who retired to from corporate life to open a Porsche restoration business - he does concours restorations as well as levels below this on any Porsche pre 1973. I have seen early 911"s , 356's, 4-cam Speedsters, and Porsche race cars come thru his shop - I would say on the whole they are more expensive to restore than a lotus elan. I would also tell you the cost to restore a 4-cam carrera2 is not to far from a early 911S ( unless the 4cam engine is junk and you need to start buying a buch of these parts) - the difference is value of the car at the end - 4 cams bring a huge pile of money so most people feel good about the out go, 911S's are now bringing good money, so folks are starting to look at investing in comprehensive work here, but you can still end up upside down if the engine and body are crap, and are wanting a concours prep job a Ray's shop -

George

[riverkeeper]

Compared to an e-type an elan is very good value ! You can buy a new elan shell for the price of a new e-type bonnet A good e-type restoration won't leave you much change from ?60K, and that's assuming you already have the donor vehicle. Whilst an elan of the same level will be around a third of that. Early MGB's are in the Elan bracket, cheaper engine but more expensive bodywork - but we all know they're driven by hairdressers

[JJDraper]

I am also about to embark on an extensive refurbishment of my +2 (not a restoration as it will not be original). Cost escalate rapidly, with the body being the most expinsive one off item. Hampered by lack of a garage, I will have to farm out most of the work so this is a true cost, including labour. I have no experience of metal bodied car refurbishments, but I guess they would compare to the costs of the full body refurb plus chassis.

I attach a little spreadsheet to give most +2 owners a heart attack! At over 16k of my hard earned GB Pounds, this is not an excercise in making a profit...

Jeremy

[JJDraper]

PS to my earlier post - there are few engine costs because the car is in regular use right now and the engine is healthy - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Comparing with metal bodied cars, it is worth remembering that this refurb is almost for cosmetic reasons only.. the car is in regular use, is reliable, passes its MOTs.... but looks like crap! A rusty steel bodied car would be dangerous and could not really be in use. This is perhaps why so few Loti get the full cosmetic treatment - you can get away with a quick 'Blow Over', which doesn't stand the test of time in the open air.

Jeremy

[Elanintheforest]

It?s quite difficult to compare like with like when looking at an E Type vs an Elan. When I bought an E Type 12 or so years ago, I chickened out and bought a rust-free Southern Californian car. Like Jeremy?s Plus 2, it was up and running, with tatty cosmetics. A bare-metal re-spray was ?6500, two years ago, the same as Jeremy?s quote for his Plus 2. That was done by a Jag specialist, who restores cars for the Jaguar museum?so not a quick tart-up job!

So, if the body is good, with a few dings / dents / cracks / blisters, an E Type is much the same as an Elan in painting cost. The difference is that an E Type is probably twice the area to prepare compared to an Elan (the underside of the bonnet has to be done as well), but the preparation takes less than half the time due to the metal base vs fibreglass base.

Where the Elan really wins over the E type is the bashed up fibreglass shell vs the rusty E Type shell. For a Plus 2, you can find a good shell on eBay for ?200 or so. For a 2 seat Elan, a new shell for ?3000. It?s very easy to spend ?20k - ?30k restoring a rusty E Type shell. Everything is available, but like repro panels for the MGB, TR6, Healey etc., nothing fits and everything has to be laboriously sorted out.

An E Type shell isn?t any more complex than a GT6 or an MGB or any other 60s metal car of its type. It?s different in that it has a frame bolted to the bulkhead that carries all the bodywork and mechanicals forward of the bulkhead, but that?s not complicated. So it doesn?t surprise me that a rusty GT6 could cost a small fortune to restore. I?ve seen MGBs having ?15k to ?20k plus spent on the restoration of the bodywork. The main difference is the hype about the E types, with Eagle E Types and others producing the ?100k restorations?but they charge ?75 / hour labour, so it?s little wonder they come out at such a price.

As for mechanical restoration, again it depends on where you start. Suspension, steering and brakes are much the same for an Elan, an E Type or an MGB?the E is probably a bit more because it?s a bit heavier, and the rear suspension setup a little more complex with the separate sub-frame and quad springs and shocks, but not hugely so. An E-Type engine is also comparable with a twincam in price to overhaul, with a 6 cylinder being about ?4k, and a 12 cylinder about ?5k. I reckon a twincam to be about ?3.5k, and a BDA around ?5k. Just had a quote on my Coventry Climax engine, and that is also ?5k.

Again, the differences come if there is something horribly wrong with the engines, and this time the Jag wins hands down. Jag parts are very easy to source, as the engines were fitted to the saloons, so second-hand parts are about the same price as second-hand Ford engine parts. If your twincam head is duff, or your BDA head or cam carrier has cracks, then you?re in for a large bill?except you can probably pick up a good head for a twincam second-hand, and you don?t have that option for a BDA. Same goes for a Climax engine as a BDA?everything is available new, at a price.

So overall, an Elan with a good body is a bit less to restore than an E Type with a rust-free body. An Elan with a poor body is considerable cheaper to restore than an E Type with a rusty body, or an MGB, TR6, Healey, GT6 with a rusty body.

The bottom line for me is that most of the expensive work on the Elan, the bodywork prep, changing chassis etc., can be done at home by many of the owners. Stripping the paint from a metal car is a few hours work, then you get into fairly specialist skill areas of panel beating etc. that many of us can?t do and can consume hundreds of hours.

This is a fundamental difference, and makes the Elan very attractive and viable as a restoration project.

Mark

[andyelan]

Hi everyone again

I don't know what labour rates are charged by Lotus specilist (I do most of the work on my cars myself) but it's a sobering thought that at ?75 / hour, ?3000 only buys a weeks work.

Looking at Jeremy's figures, I'll bet whoever quoted him for the bodywok wasn't planning to spend much more than a fortnight doing it, not very long really. I can contrast that with how long it would take me to do the job myself.

As I said, we do have a very expensive hobby and money doesn't go very far these days

Andy

[JJDraper]

The bodywork quote is from options 1 - they have seen and costed the job, including the expensive metalflake roof. Chassis change work is to be carried out by a someone with a lot of Lotus experience and many +2s under their belt. The understanding is that the car will be delivered back as road useable rather than a concours restoration; working sub-assemblies will be refitted with minimal refurbishment. Rewire is considered cheaper than re-using the existing cobbled up loom and would save time (money). Interior will be sorted as and when more money is available.

Time to strip body for delivery to bodyshop - 2-3days
Minimal bodywork repairs (little crazing, some reinforcing work)
Time in bodyshop 2-3weeks (some time is 'resting' the body)
Time to reassemble & rewire, 2-3 weeks - subject to other jobs (!)
Time to sort out the interior and other problems - Ten years...

Job done, empty wallet!

Jeremy

[Bruce Crowthorne]

From my experience, the thing that drives the costs up is using someone else's labour!
I chose to do as much as I possibly could myself. That included stripping the body (that took me 8 months!). And rebuilding most things.
Some jobs I just don't have the skill or facilities to tackle, so I had the car sprayed professionally and had the engine machining and balancing done professionally.
Even with all my cost savings I reckon I could just about break even if I ignore any costs for my labour.

But in my case I didn't do it for a profit. I just have a nice little car that I can be proud of and enjoy using.

Just my 2p worth
Bruce

[marklowe]

Hi
My S4 Elan is probably in a similar condition to Jeremy?s car. It had been of the road for 10 years when I bought it early last year, it has recently past its MOT without any advisory notice been issued, same as last year.
But the car is very tatty, paintwork especially. This summer I rebuilt the front and rear suspension, the rear cost me the best part of ?1000 as 95% of what I had was scrap.

The car now desperately needs a new chassis and I?m not keen on doing the work myself in a small garage with only a toolbox. I asked at Paul Matty?s and they budget on about ?2000 in labour plus the price of the chassis ?1500, plus VAT and any small problems, probably close to ?5000 in total.

Chris Foulds response is that unless the car is otherwise immaculate, it really isn?t economically viable to pay to have the job done professionally and say that I should budget on ?3000 plus VAT as the bare minimum.

I?m not totally adverse to paying out to have someone else do the work, in fact I had already put most of the money to one side in preparation, but I am again considering having a go at doing it myself. There is something niggling away at the back of my mind that says paying someone else to do the work is cheating.

Jeremy who are you using to do the mechanical work, Spyder? As I see that you have opted for a space frame chassis.

Mark

[Elanintheforest]

I don't think it's 'cheating' getting someone else to do it, but it's certainly a very satisfying job to do it yourself.

A chassis change on an Elan really is no more complicated than putting a new subframe on a Mini...there's a bit more to it, but it's straightforward work. In fact, if you've just done all the suspension, you've done the most complex stuff. The only tools you need are a standard socket set and your 'tool box', a spring compressor and the right size drills and taps to fix the body to the new chassis.

Get a copy of Brian Buckland's excellent book...you'll be inspired!

Mark

[twincamman]

I dont know how or where your chassis is rusted --but 18 gauge steel is cheap ----- carefully cut out the offending rusted area --use a handy grinder or a saws all--make a cardboard template and cut a metal patch piece to fit as exactly as you can ----take it whole chassis to a welder and have the pieces welded in ----flapper grind the welds until they show no weld ---and your in 3000 knicker --its a very simple repair - and your chassis is stronger than pig sh ##t again ---- ed

[stuartgb100]

This is how I plan to do mine, when the time comes:

Remove the chassis.
Inspect it for rust and damage.
Check it dimensionally.
Take photos of offending areas and get quotes for repairs.
Get quotes for chemical dipping/galvanising and spray coating.

I'll weigh it up, and then decide if a new chassis is the way to go.

So I'm with Mark and Ed.

BTW, were there any improvments made to later chassis' that I should incorporate?

Regards,
Stuart.