Starter has eaten the Flywheel on my S3…

[skelteanema]

I bought a Powerlite pre-engaged starter from Paul Matty about 4 years ago.

Before I bought it, I specifically asked whether the ring gear needed changing/rotating, or whether any other (wiring) changes were required. The reply was that it should be a straight swap and no changes to the ring gear or wiring were required.

I have had this starter fitted for four years now without any problems. It did appear to be a straight swap.

[ericbushby]

When asked, Powerlite stated that there starter would cope with the ring whether it was chamfered or not. There is no need to do anything except fit the starter, two screws and one wire. Ask them yourself for confirmation.
Eric in Burnley
1967 S3SE DHC

[h20hamelan]

Original starter pulls in, new style pushes out

[512BB]

I missed when the OP stated back in June that he had put the starter back in and that it starts the engine. Quite frankly, I am amazed, and am also amazed that one would want to replace the starter with all that swarf in and around the flywheel and clutch. Even if a clean up operation was carried out, you are only going to be able to do so much.

The other thing that would worry me would be is the starter going to continue to grind away at the ring gear creating yet more swarf. And lastly, at some point, the starter is not going to be able to start the engine and could leave you stranded, possibly when out and about, and that is a pita, even if you have recovery.

Leslie

[phil1800]

The difference between interia and pre- engaged ring gears are the chamfers that need to face the starter pinion. Thus the chamfers for a pre- engaged need to be on the gearbox side and not on the engine side. Also, the number of theeth have to be compatible with the starter used. Burton sells 110 theeth gears for intera and 132 theeth for pre- engaged.

[2cams70]

Did you actually look further into my suggestion to check that the engagement of the starter pinion is correctly synchronized so that it doesn’t start spinning until fully in mesh with the ring gear? A spinning gear trying to mesh with a stationary one will never work properly. You seemed to just ignore this comment previously

[alanr]

I fitted a new standard 110 tooth starter ring to my flywheel when i changed my gearbox and fitted a Powerlite RAC472MS Hi-Torque starter and it engages quietly and works perfectly.

As far as I am concerned there is no need to fit anything other than a standard 110 tooth ring gear when fitting a Hi-Torque starter motor. At least that goes for the Powerlite unit, other makes may of course differ.

Also the chamfer on the ring gear makes no difference to the working of the Powerlite unit if fitted either way around.
I bought the 110tooth replacement starter ring gear from SJS.

Alan.

[mark030358]

I can confirm that both Lucas (exchange unit in my case) and the Brise have ~28,5 mm dia/ 9 teeth. When I switched to the Lotus 5 speed gearbox, approximately 3000 km ago, the flywheel was changed to a good used item, but w/o the welding on the former. I am now looking for the next flywheel…. Is there any way to check the hardness of the gears without laboratory equipment??

Why was the ring gear welded to the flywheel? I have never seen that before or am I missing something

cheers
Mark

ps stay well clear of the Brise starters

[alanr]

The starter ring should not be welded on at all to the flywheel
The starter ring should be heated and shrunk on to the flywheel.

After cutting the old ring carefully off I heated mine gently, not too hot, with an acetylene torch and it just dropped on. I then left it for a couple of hours to cool and all was good.

I have fitted literally hundreds of them of various makes over the years this way !

I have heard of people putting them in the oven to heat them up but not tried this myself. I would have thought it questionable if you could get the oven hot enough but who knows.

Alan.

[RichardHawkins]

Alan,

I also think that the ring gear should not be welded to the flywheel. Steel ring gear, cast iron flywheel, but that’s just what I found on my engine when I took it apart. I have bought a couple of Ford Zetec flywheels from scrap yards, and found no chamfer on the ring gear, and negligible wear.

Using a domestic oven was hot enough to shrink the ring gear onto the flywheel. The oven has a “Pyrolitic” self cleaning function, I don’t know how hot it gets.

On the few flywheels I have worked on I have not found it necessary to cut the ring gear off. On the basis of I have nothing to loose, I put the flywheel on the floor, and with a big drift and lump hammer worked my way around the ring gear until it came off.

Hope this is of interest,

Richard Hawkins

[alanr]

The easiest way to cut/remove a starter ring from a flywheel I find is to:-
First, drill a small hole, say 5mm or so, in the side of the starter ring and across the well of a tooth on the ring but being careful not to let the hole drill into the actual flywheel itself.
Then with the flywheel/starter ring assembly upright and standing on a hard surface usually a single hard blow from a hammer and cold chisel in the well of the drilled tooth the starter ring will just split and drop off the flywheel.

Alan.

[promotor]

The difference between interia and pre- engaged ring gears are the chamfers that need to face the starter pinion. Thus the chamfers for a pre- engaged need to be on the gearbox side and not on the engine side. Also, the number of theeth have to be compatible with the starter used. Burton sells 110 theeth gears for intera and 132 theeth for pre- engaged.

A proper pre-engaged flywheel ring gear shouldn't need a chamfer on any side of the teeth as the starter pinion isn't spinning when it is engaged / presented to the flywheel - the pinion itself should have a sufficient shape on it to allow it to enter mesh with the unchamfered teeth of the ring gear. Original Ford pre-engaged ring gears have no chamfer at all.

I have a genuine Ford pre-engaged starter that works with an inertia 110 tooth flywheel and it enters the side of the ring gear where there are no chamfered teeth present. Works perfectly.

This was a starter motor offered on Ford export cars and are extremely hard to find - mines the only one I've ever seen "in person" and I've not seen any new or 2nd hand ones advertised for sale anywhere!

[phil1800]

@2cams: I am sorry not to have responded sooner to your advice. I did a ‚test‘ the brise, once I removed it. To my eye the pinion pushed out before it rotated, is there a proper test to perform outside the car?

The welded flywheel was on my car when I bought it from Canada. I removed it when switching to the 5 speed and the brise. The brise starter was noisy from the start, but it worked well. I will try to switch back to an pre engaged starter when the engine will be out this winter. However, I am confused about the different statements regarding the ‚right‘ ring gear: Most posts here say that the standard ring needs not to be replaced. I talked to 3 different guys here in Germany that are running the Brise and other pre engaged starters on their race Elans, Cortina and twink single seaters. All of them are building their cars themselves. All claim that the pre engaged starter won‘t work with the standard gear, or will only last for a very limited time. I know from my car the the brise has chewed the gears from the front, but the Lucas still works very smoothly from the back??

[rgh0]

Most of the after market pre-engage starters have design deficiencies causing engagement problems and wear. This may be incorrect tooth pitch circle diameter or mounting location or inadequate throw of the pinion or excessive flexibility of the adapter or other possibilities. I personally would use none of them without a full engineering analysis and if the supplier cannot provide it go elsewhere if you cant do it yourself.

In general a lead in on the flywheel is not needed as the starter pinion has a lead in but having a lead in on both does help assuming the pinion fully engages prior to starting to turn which may not be the case.

Like promotor i use an orginal Bosch preengage starter used on Escorts but with the Lotus style 9 tooth piniojnhere in Australia. I have used it wiith the flywheel chamfer facing the pinion or opposite without issues either way.

cheers
Rohan

[Peter +2]

Hi Rohan,

Could you specify the Bosch pre-engaged starter you use?

Many thanks

Peter