Plus 2 side windows

[bill griffiths]

I thought I had read everything in relation to this rotten task - one I have been putting off now for a long time!.
Indeed the last job before the car will be finished after a bit of a delay since 1975!
Conecting the sliding piece to the guide below the glass is not too bad.
Getting the quadrant to mate with the motor is helped by first getting the two accurately alligned on the bench, ie the quadrant, pinion and the three bolt holes.
And once in the door, by screwing in a temporary two inch metal thread as a guide to getting the three bolts and the end of the shaft of the motor all in place.
But after numerous attempts I ended each time, no matter how I tried, with too much of the quadrant on the top side of the pinion resulting in plently in reserve for raising the window....but insufficient to get the window where it belongs when fully opened,
I have tried the cocked position as described by many here, the horizontal position as described in the workshop manual, and a few in between....indeed I think all that is left is the Cossack position!
What am I missing?
Regards,
Bill

[bill griffiths]

I saw a post from Mike Aldren on June 16th which migh be relevant to my problem.
Indeed each flat section with the capstan at the end has a number for LH, and a (different) number for RH!
I have about 6 of them and each is identical!
I am not sure if this is relevant. I attempted to PM Mike but seemingly without success.
Regards,
Bill

[mikealdren]

Hi Bill,
I didn't receive your PM but I do get a few PMs so there must have been a problem. Try again or post here?
Cheers
Mike

[bill griffiths]

Thanks, Mike.
In your post of June 16th you referred to a problem if the LH and RH components of window mechanisms
were reversed.
You referred to a potential problem in getting windows to wind down far enough.
I am not sure if you were referring to Plus 2s but it attracted my attention for the reasons in my original post above.
Try as I might, all weekend, I could not get the motor and toothed quadrant to give me full movement up and down.
The problem was always with going down!
Perhaps the spring prevents easy articulation so that the motor and quadrant, when connected, were never where they needed to be for full movement.
The flat steel part with the capstan at the end is offset slightly so the quadrant favours the down stroke if the arm is horizontal.
And I expect there is only one part (with the quadrant and capstan) used, despite it bearing two part numbers!
Kindest regards,
Bill

[bill griffiths]

More hours spent fruitlessly.
Some in further attempts to install in my Plus 2 motors and window lifts, some in again trolling through the forum in the belief that someone must have had my problem before!
Every time I set up the capstan in the slide under the glass and then connect the motor to the the plate which locates the end of the drive from the motor along with the three bolts, I find I must move the window in order to allow the motor to align with its mountings.
When I do, on every occasion, full window travel is unavailable. Usually it will not lower far enough!
It simply runs out of the toother quadrant!
Perhaps the hinge between the two sections of the "elbow" is unable to articulate sufficiently because of pressure of the coil spring not allowing the motor to be placed at its required angle.
I have tried it with minimum tension on the spring but with no more success.
For my next trick I shall leave the coil spring off, assemble the arm so that it readily "bends" to help getting the motor fastened in place without having to compromise the position of the window because of spring arthrodesis, and then, with a small incision, install the coil spring.
It might even allow the motor with arm attached to be inserted as a unit!
Regards,
Bill

[mikealdren]

Hi Bill,
I only tried a test fitting as my car hasn't been painted yet. I acquired the car stripped down so I had to work out which mechanism was RH and LH. I found that the two parts were marked with the same part numbers but they were obviously handed, they were not the same. I test fitted them without motor or any other parts, just the mechanism and the mounting metal strip. I could then see for the travel that one part was clearly RH and the other LH.

Another thing is that the motors are marked LH and RH but that is for the original GM application, for the +2 they are fitted the other way round so the LH motor goes in the RH door and vice versa.

I did try fitting the mechanisms with the spring in place and gave for another day, I failed to get the part through the door aperture! Must have another go....

[Bud English]

I don't know if you've seen this past post. Stu has laid out this process in great detail. It may be of some help. I luckily read it before taking everything apart.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=24949

[bill griffiths]

Thanks, Bud.
Fairly sure I have read every word on the subject but the fact remains that I need to adjust the height of the window in order to get the motor assembly to the position where it can be bolted in place.
And once it is there, despite numerous attempts with different degrees of cocking, I do not get a full range of movement when the motor is operated without it first running out of quadrant teeth!
So I shall next try locking the amount of cock by installing the coiled spring after the motor is in place!
Kind regards,
Bill

[bill griffiths]

After assembling the motor etc in the door about 6 times (a bit faster each time ...perhaps!) and getting the same result each time I thought I should share the apparent reason, although it made no sense at all!
The relevant result was that the rack would part company from the pinion at about the time the window reached the bottom.
Because the motor is fixed. the movement of the toothed quadrant which is attached to it by the worm drive is also fixed.
The first picture shows the quadrant when the capstan is attached to the window and the window is at the bottom of its travel.
The hidden part of the quadrant has just come out of mesh with the pinion which is furiously turning anti clockwise.
The second picture shown the position of the quadrant when the capstan is attached to the bottom of the window and the window fully shut.
You will note that little more than half the quadrant is involved in the total movement above, and that that half is off to one side.
The third photo shows the reverse side of the quadrant.
I bought a lot of spares for my Plus 2 about 30 years ago and so I have about half a dozen window motors and associated bits.
This one is the standard shape but unlike the others you will see stops in the teeth. Clearly it is designed so that the half of the rack which is used is the middle half.
The final photo shows the front side, and superimposed is the back side, in red.
If tI reverse the rack , it is clear that there will be ample teeth to operate the full throw and do so in the middle of the quadrant.
Alternatively I can cut and weld the flat metal piece perhaps half way along its length to create a small angle
downwards to provide and extra inch or two which may likewise fix the problem.
But why???
Perhaps the windows were fitted with lower stops sufficient to prevent the pinion running out of rack, but it would have been always a close run thing.
And why has it not been reported upon before
Regards
Bill

[bill griffiths]

[bill griffiths]

[mikealdren]

Hi Bill,
if it's any help, my parts, from a 1970 car, don't have the 'stop' teeth and they have 32 teeth plus a larger (unformed) tooth on one end.

[bill griffiths]

Mike Aldren actually solved my problem in a post months ago, but I only realised it while reviewing my confusion yesterday!
Indeed without realising it I had collected six of the toothed mechanisms for Plus 2 windows.
Only while reviewing the problem did I discover that five of them were for the LHS door!
And as Mike had effectively already said, using a LHS mechanism on the RHS, the window will not lower sufficiently before the pinion runs out of teeth!
Mind you, I could now almost install the whole shebang, motors included, with a blindfold.
And look forward to it becomimg an Olympic event.
Regards,
Bill

[mikealdren]

So pleased that you've managed to solve it. Interestingly I've found an easier way to sort out left from right.

With the spring in place and a bolt securing the mechanism in the install position, the arm points downwards and this distinguishes left from right.

[bill griffiths]

Thanks, Mike.
And I had actually converted a LH one to a RH one!
A 10 minute job, and a dob of weld on each of the two ground down rivets.