I Detest Rubber - Reproductions

[gerrym]

Hi, I've had rubber gaitors on a steering rack fail (zero miles, no UV), bellows on sliding drive shaft, engine mounts cracking etc. By the way, these all came from recognised suppliers, not ebay or anything.

Classics Monthly April 2011 has Gary Stretton reporting same problems with steering gaitors and front brake hoses, less than 2 years old.

Anyone else a bit peeved with the quality of rubber parts. What is it with these parts when the originals were intact after 20 years?

Gerry

[elanfan1]

It is probably down to good ol' Elf & Safety same as the donuts - the nasties they were allowed to put in like Carbon Black is no longer allowed and modern replacement chemicals are just not up to the job.

Are silicone ones available yet?

[Elanintheforest]

I put a set of rotoflex couplings in my S3 in 1979....they are looking a bit ropey now, but still work!

Whilst recently restoring my E Type, I fitted a new set of engine mountings. They had to be replaced before the car went on the road. That was zero miles / 4 years after fitting....they had collapsed under the weight of the engine. Now you'd think that the engine weight may have been a consideration in the design, but I'm guessing that these components, along with many others, were made in some cottage industry in Vietnam were they just have to look, more or less, right. Testing or fit-for-purpose doesn't come into it, but I'm sure cost does.

It sounds like the slightly upgraded stuff from TTR lasts a decent time...I guess you get what you pay for. But with Rotoflex couplings being about ?80 each....I want them to last another 32 years!!

Mark

[alexblack13]

Sounds a bit familiar Mark. I had one engine mounting fail. The rubber parted company from the steel and just collapsed. The new one got filled with black silicone. I've repaired the broken one but have not needed to try it yet. looks like they last about 24-30 months if one is lucky.

Among the other duds I've bought are Indian ''Girling'' seal kits. That was a laugh! and ''Girling'' master cyl' caps which when I screwed it on bloody well would not come off. I had to almost destroy it to get it off, and it was a carbs off job too.

Both these items were from Ebay but the mounts were not. The rubber looked very dry on those and I was not surprised one failed..

Deep Joy!

Alex B....

[john.p.clegg]

Alex

I also had a set of master cylinder caps off Fleabay....same problem,ended up chucking them in the bin and replaced them with "proper" plastic ones.

John

[elansprint71]

I got Girling caps from Classicar Automotive- a reputable supplier. Mine stuck too; chucked them out and fitted the old ones back but with the rubber seals from the new ones.

[bcmc33]

I got Girling caps from Classicar Automotive- a reputable supplier. Mine stuck too; chucked them out and fitted the old ones back but with the rubber seals from the new ones.

Many thanks guys for this little gem - knowing you have had the same problem makes it easier to accept.
I was beginning to think I'd lost my touch.

[alexblack13]

Blimey, crivvens and jings!!!

Just shows the extent of the problem. I had no idea! I too thought it was a one off.

I have to say I found a few things bought new from a good supplier did not fit well.

Way too long handbrake cable...Refurbished rear calipers which were returned with nothing done to the handbrake unit.

stainless exhaust. The main pipe of which did not fit the silencer. etc....

Alex B.....

[gerrym]

The metal things that don't fit I can (generally) live with, possibly reworking or worst case return.

It's the rubber things that cause grief. Generally rubber stuff on moderns is good and lasts ages. So I don't buy the health and safety argument saying that the correct compounds and formulations can't be used.

I'm more convinced that a certain disregard has crept into the whole "supply chain" for classic car parts, and much expertise has been lost. Together with a unrealistic demand for cheap components on the part of purchasers.

Myself, I would be more than happy to rid the car of any rubber elements, does anyone have a list? Things like rubber door seals would have to stay... presumably we don't need to suffer poor quality engine mounts and things like brake hoses as decent alternatives exist for these.

Regards

[alexblack13]

Totally agree with Gerry. I'm sure its a case of get stuff made as cheap as possible thereby maximising profits and to hell with the quality. Only customers after all.

Engine mounts and drive couplings are the quality items we need as both are a pain to change esp' prematurely...

Like Gerry says there are good alternatives but.... Some folk will not fit them in the interests of originality.. I say sod that when it comes to certain items. Like brake hoses for E.G... I've gone Goodrich Stainless all round.. Even on the clutch..

It all just makes life that bit harder.. Fancy having to start fettling a new exhaust to make it fit together! My main pipe was 5 mm smaller dia then the input pipe to the silencer!! That had to be cut and reworked..Just should not be required. No excuses..
The 3" too long handbrake cable was a pain in the arse too..

Great fun eh?

Alex...

[bcmc33]

It's the rubber things that cause grief. Generally rubber stuff on moderns is good and lasts ages. So I don't buy the health and safety argument saying that the correct compounds and formulations can't be used.

Well Gerry, I think you should, because it is essentially true. But the rest of your arguments are valid.

I'm not sure how much actual rubber is used in vehicles today. In a previous lifetime in the 70's we spent every opportunity to get rid of rubber because of the burgeoning H&S issues and the resultant lack of performance and reliability. Synthetic compounds were progressively being developed and introduced - work on door seals and suspension bushes are still burned into the back of my mind in an effort to get the synthetic materials to act like rubber that everyone was used to. Changes in attitude and perceiving new things was always a problem in those days.
And of course, todays materials are potentially so much better in all respects, but third world processing is another subject.

[Tonyw]

Hi all,

Many years ago I made some molds and mixed and poured some urethane to manufacture some suspension bushes for a car that I simply could not get them for at the time this was at least thirty years ago. I have recently bought another car which needs engine mounts and I already know that even new these rubber mounts do not last very long and like the Lotus are difficult to fit. So my question is...is there a market for urethane engine mounts for our cars? urethane as we know is a very good replacement for rubber and it can be mixed to a hardness/softness as required.

I will need to make some for my 'other" car and will make them out of urethane once I get my head around calculating the correct elasticity has anyone else tried this?

Tonyw

[bcmc33]

So my question is...is there a market for urethane engine mounts for our cars?

I "designed" a urethane engine mount for my Elan and bought materials to make them.

How disappointed I was to see exactly what I had "designed" on a shelf in the TTR storeroom.

The amount of urethane in the space available probably means that the compliance would be harder than the standard mount. I still have the materials - perhaps I will find time to make them one day.

[trw99]

See here for some previous and enlightening views:

elan-archive-f16/urethane-nuts-t7830.html

elan-f15/polybushes-went-lose-t20236.html

elan-f15/the-bad-rubber-anomaly-t17469.html

elan-f14/engine-mountings-t12053.html

Tim

[Jeff@Jae]

This has certainly been a problem that we've had to deal with and has resulted in our having suspension bushings, engine mounts, diff and strut mounts etc.made to our specification to solve all that. That has all worked out very well for us and now we have bushings and mounts that last as least as long as the original Dunlop Metalastic units that these cars came with. I inadvertently tested our rear A frame inner bushings for gear oil resistance (spewing pinion seal and no time to replace during a busy driving spell) and they came out just fine ! We do not trust any Rotoflex couplings made now and only sell CV axle replacements. Since that method is so superior we'll not get into making rubber Rotoflex ourselves. The engine mounts we have made for Elans, Europas, Cortinas, Esprits are a heavy duty version because, in the case of Elans/Europas for example, the original 105E Anglia mounts were not engineered for the power and use we see in Lotus cars. The Europa also uses the engines mounts as part of the rear suspension ! Since the real OEM bushings outlasted even poly bushings we've stuck with that along with the fact that the OEM have so little compliance any way it means that poly bushings are no advantage in reality. We've taken the liberty to change the shore rating on the inner rear A arm bushings because tires have a lot more grip than anything thought of when these cars were designed and they have the most compliance of any of the suspension bushings on these cars.
Other things as simple as the little elbow for the vacuum headlamp lift mechanism at the cylinder head as currently supplied have also failed quickly and we have had those made to last.
We haven't run in to the steering rack bellows failures yet but we'll keep a watch on that for the ones we've been supplying. That also goes for the hydraulic rebuild kits.