Breaking Down the subject of Paintwork

[richard sprint]

I have been interested in understanding the black art of painting an Elan shell - this is not just about cost but also trying to understand the complexity or otherwise!

It seems to me that as in all paintwork it comes down to understanding the materials one is working with...

So far my research has highlighted two major points 1) that the shell is properly dried out - to avoid later bubbles from moisture being released and this can be done by drying out the body in a heated bay like the spray booth.

2) That any weakness in the gel coat like star cracks are pinpointed and made good with glass fibre tissue before final preparation.

(It is appreciated that some shells might be in a worse condition through blending in new sections)

Then there is the issue of whether to remove all the old paint i.e. back to gel coat or just flatten.

Many of the established shops have a tried and tested method but suprisingly many seem to ignore the time saving method of stripping by soda blasting in favour of the time consuming and ultimately costly method of rubbing/grinding off the old paint.

Which ever method is used has a direct time cost and I wonder whether in stubbornness to remaining with old methods one is'nt paying more than is necessary?

Given effecient stripping making good any defects one is then starting from a position of applying primer allowing to settle and then any remedial work before applying top coat like any other respraying job.

Are we having to pay extra to those who are stuck in the past and charging an unecessary rate for doing the job?

What other factors might I be missing?

[nebogipfel]

Richard,

I can't comment on soda blasting but as a painter of many years and having done my own Elan I think what is usually overlooked when sitting in your armchair musing (I've done it too ) is the hours it can take carefully repairing all the defects in the average Elan shell. Then depending on the process you use following the initial prep of the bare shell .......never leave old paint! the hand shaping of of the repairs and bare shell, spray filller coats, each primer coat and the final flatting and polishing of the colour coats.

This work has to be done by hand if you want curves on your Elan! There are no shortcuts.

In my experience any preparatory work done by owners is usually a disaster. On an Elan panel and pod fit may need rectification, door, bonnet and boot shuts will need repair, etc

Say two and a half working weeks, 100hrs (mine took far longer) at ?40/hr (if you can find anyone that cheap) and you are up to ?4,000. Now factor in VAT, paint and materials...........

This is assuming the shell is properly bare on arrival and no reassmbly is required.

[richard sprint]

John

Thanks for your reply - so an element I have overlooked is that the filling and rubbing down is more extensive than at first seems and where the skill is to be found through freehand shaping and flatting?

What are your thoughts on Soda blasting? it would seem to cover two elements very well - efficiency in stripping and avoiding damage to gel coat I have heard that one of the professional companies would strip a shell for around 450 and this would take them a day - this at least provides a starting position i.e. uncovering any nasties - how much time does it take to rub down paint work by hand - I would guess a good weeks graft?

All things are clear from the arm chair!

Richard

[nebogipfel]

Hi Richard, Yes hand flatting is a long slow painful job (production paper and wet and dry is hell on your fingers and I can't work in gloves) but if you want the final shape to be good you can't use labour saving devices.

I try not to think about the hours I spent on my shell. Having done my own shell I would much rather see the car in it's untouched state than stripped because it can be very hard to spot the more subtle crazing and cracks in bare gel coat. I would always advocate photographing and/or drawing the problem areas you can see before work commences.

I've never seen soda blasting and I suppose if it leaves a good finish and the shell beneath is good it would save time, but in my experience it is usual to uncover many hidden horrors.

I'm about to leave the computer for a few days so if you don't get any response from me I'm not being rude

[Tonyw]

Hi all,
I removed my DHC body from the frame about a year ago and put it on a rotator that I made, this rotator has wheels so I can take it outside the garage, this I did during our Western Australian summer and sandblasted most of the paint off, I say most because I used a palm sander to get most of the paint off. If I were to do another GRP body I would definatly use soda blasting but using a rotator to get to all the hard to get places. Having a rotator also make glassing so much easier, i did my lower door bobbins with the car body up side down.

On the subject of painting a GRP body we all know that the trick is to get the door, boot bonnet shut lines perfect, make sure that all the GRP damage is well fixed, painting is all about preparation, I am proposing to use two pack paint, flatten of and then two pack clear over the top and buff to a shine. I will paint the car myself not because I do not want to spend the money but because I think i can and do so with more than aceptable results. I do think we sometimes "overcook" things a little that sad space and climate also play a large part.

Tony W

[stugilmour]

Richard:

Just mid way on getting the Plus 2 body shell done professionally by a local body shop. Loti are pretty rare in my area, so the specialist I am using is more commonly working on Corvettes, Cobra kit cars, fibreglass hot rod bodies, etc. Main difference to the Lotus seems to be the fibreglass is somewhat thinner than the 'Vette, but I am comfortable the shop knows all the steps required.

Anyway, I spoke to Chris regarding soda blasting. He seemed skeptical at first. He ended up buying a machine and using it on a 'Vette immediately ahead of my car in the work queue. He was very pleased with the results for initial stripping to gel, and used the process as a first pass on my car. I am a long way from expert on the how-to's of painting cars, but the soda blast results looked great to me.

As mentioned above though, this was just the start of the work. The soda blast revealed all of the areas requiring repair. For example, the large star cracking of the roof area can be clearly seen looking through from the underside, general cracking and damage in the trunk latch area, how much to fuss smoothing the glass finish in the engine bay area, cracking in front fender area above wheel well, bodge repair in rocker area, etc. He also was not happy with the paint stripping in the door hinge area, and opted to drop the doors off and hand sand. The shaping, repair, and high built primer steps are where I see the bulk of hours going.

I am presently at ~135 hours, and I would guess at an additional 50 hours to be ready for the finish paint coats.

Anyway, I am happy with my decision to focus on removing and re-assembling the body attachments, putting the body back on the frame myself, re-wiring the car, and leaving the rest of the body details to the shop. Certainly admire folks that are taking this stuff on by themselves, but I just did not have the expertise, work space and time to do it myself.

Hoping to have the body back in about six weeks, so we shall see.

Here is a "shout out" of Chris's shop. The site seems a bit slow today, but the third pic of my car gives you and idea of the results of the soda blast stage.

http://halerconcepts.com/1971_lotus_hal ... ts_ltd.htm

HTH

[andyelan]

Hi Everyone

While I don't want to give anyone the impression I'm made of money (I'm most certainly not) I dont think the quotes of ?5-?6K sound really excessive. As stated above, this only equates to about 100 man/hours work and I actually find it quite remarkable that anyone can take an old painted bodyshell then strip, repair and repaint it all with just a couple of weeks work (I notice that Ian "Lotus Fan" took 27 months to do his car doing the job himself - see "Things in Common"). I think the problem is that, at todays labour rates, money just dosen't go very far, start paying professionals to do any sort of labour intensive job and you'll go through thouands of pounds before you can bat an eye.

I personally still believe the 2 seater Elan is one of the cheaper classis to restore, but that doesn't mean it's actually cheap. Bottom line is messing about with old cars of any sort is a very expensive hobby.

Andy

[rocket]

It seems like an awful lot of money to me,roughly the cost of a reasonable car? Have many people had a paint job by a normal spray shop? Id be interested in the results? My car looks pretty decent at mo but i do know the po had smashed the front wing about 8 years ago.I have the invoice for the repair which included some filling then repaint of the complete front wing.If you didnt know you couldnt detect the repair and it was carried out by a standard paint shop..


Ian.

[andyelan]

Hi Again

I do agree it's a lot of money and for me a least, what makes it seem worse is that repairing and painting a fiberglass shell is only really required for cosmetic reasons. If we were talking about sorting rust out on a steel body, when not doing repairs could mean the difference between saving or loosing the car, then maybe spending this sort of money might not seem so bad.

My car is actually full of chips and gell cracks and although it dosen't look too bad from a few feet away I expect it will have to be painted one day, however, that might be next year, the year after or ten years from now. It's not going to get worse while I'm saving up and that's the advantage of fiberglass. Now, if we were talking about a steel car.....

Andy

[stugilmour]

I am guessing my car was re-painted by an "ordinary" paint shop by the PO. It looked acceptable to me when I bought the car a couple of years ago, although I was well aware of it's limitations. Anyone taking a close look at the car would judge the job as average at best, excessive over spray, some trim bits not removed prior to paint, OK looking under repair covered with shiny paint. I got comments on the limitations of the paint from others on the list who inspected it for me prior to buying, so no regrets as I knew exactly what I was getting.

The PO had rarely driven the car after the re-paint, like maybe 400 miles over five years or something. I drove the car for about 2000 miles to my home. The big issue with a non-thorough prep job prior to re-paint did not show up until the miles were on the car. First to show up were the large star cracks on the roof section, which emerges at about 1500 miles. I took the car into a touchless car wash, and a piece of paint about 3" x 9" removed itself from the front. Once Chris at the body shop got into the paint stripping process in earnest, parts of the paint could be pealed off in sheets.

I originally intended to just drive the car, spray some rattle can paint over the missing spot(s), sort the car mechanically, and take care of the body several years down the road. Really, this is one big advantage of the glass body; if you are OK with the limitations of the finish, its OK to use the car as it won't deteriorate like a steel panel with exposed areas would.

I only decided to take the body down to gel this last year when I became aware of the severe chassis rust and the need for a new chassis to pass our equivalent of MOT. Figured might as well do the resto work at one time correctly with the body off.

So, I think the point that many have made already is it is probably preferable to live with the limitations of the existing finish, or bite the bullet and fix it right, whether you do it yourself or pay the big bucks to have it done. The least satisfying option is to do a part way, "good enough" job, as it will look like hell shortly after it is done. Doing the job correctly is very time consuming, no mater who does it. If one is "learning as you go", it will probably take twice as long than a professional, be a lot less expensive, and very satisfying when completed.

The only experience I have with spraying a car is by accident, when we would overspray parked cars. Managed to cover 200 in one go on one particularly windy day while spraying a roof . I spent five years doing industrial coatings, was a journeyman working with industrial fibreglass, plural component coatings, sand blasting, urethane foams, etc. Doing a car body is a long way from what I could do well, let alone the safety issues, required equipment, work space, etc. As I said above, really appreciate folks that take it on themselves, but am well aware of the degree of difficulty.

[worzel]

Hi

It all boils down to patience. Controversial maybe but I don't think stripping to gelcoat is always necessary- it depends how many times the car has been previously painted- and how well!

Back in 1989 I stripped the factory coat off my sprint but with hindsight it probably wasn't necessary- I only did it because I was changing the colour. Very long winded job and very boring to boot. As for the mystique about gel coats and not damaging them I wasn't too concerned, I just repaired it with 2 pack epoxy spray filler which looks remarkably like gelcoat. The first painting (1990) lasted 14 years (it was red and it faded) but there were no issues with repairs breaking thru (and I did many I assure you).

The second painting was 5 years ago and I just painted over the earlier coat. So far it's never caused any problems and I can't really see why it should in fact.

Just my own experience.

John

[richard sprint]

What an interesting series of posts from across the globe!

I'm almost certain that I will use a pro shop, its much to my annoyance that I just do not have the experience to undertake the work myself as with all skill based tasks it is a pleasure watching a pro going about his work they make it look easy and flow with the job whether its a brick layer or someone cutting cloth!

None the less I do love a challenge and I think the idea of using a rotary device is spot on I've used one when restoring my m3 and there's nothing like working at a comfortable height in good light.

I regularly use a paint shop on my metal bodied cars and have always been satisfied with the work but unfortunately he won't take on a plastic body even though I know he would achieve a great finish.

The post from John about not removing all the old paint - a tricky one this? supposing there is a reaction between the paint materials? also depending on how many old coats exist one might eventually see the varience?

My choice would always be to remove all old paint...

Richard

[ceejay]

Having used paint stripper about twenty six years ago to strip my S2 elan body shell I am
now investigating the soda stripping option. As I prepare the elan for the second time
around restoration job.
There are several companies here in Australia offering this method. It is one of the
best options when doing a complete strip... it is harmless to fibreglass apart from
the water that is used to repell the dust, but that's no drama here in OZ, a few
hours in our hot sun and the moisture will be well and truly gone.

I don't like stripping paint with the stripper gunk, it's messy and it stinks.
After you watch the OZ videos below you will change your mind about soda
blasting.
http://www.asbsupplies.com/products_sodablaster.html
http://www.asbsupplies.com/dvd_video.html
Cheers
Col

[frearther]

Did I see a twinc front cover in the video?

[stugilmour]

Col, great video that shows the soda blast process very well. The speaker has it right regarding the effect of particle shape on the stripping action of various media like beads, sand, soda, etc.

Here are a few of other points on the process that perhaps explain why it is so appropriate for stripping of the fibreglass, alloy parts, mechanical parts with rubber seals, etc. on our cars...

- The mass of the soda particles is very small compared to sand or glass granules. This reduces the momentum of the particle.
- I believe they can run the equipment at lower air pressures than with sand, reducing the particle velocity, and further reducing the momentum of the particle. Haven't run the equipment myself, but this is what I gather.
- The low momentum provides the gentler cleaning effect, minimizing damage to soft parts, alloy, etc.
- The low momentum reduces the surface heat generated by the process on the cleaned surface. This reduces the possibility of changing steel properties and warping thin steel.
- Residual sand is not a good thing in a part like the rear shock tower/bearing housing. Seems the soda is easier to clean out of crevices in these sorts of parts, just by blowing with air or cleaning with an appropriate fluid.

What I gathered from John's experience regarding his successful respray over the old paint is that he was in good shape as the original coat had not severely failed, and he was going over a job of known quality with good bond to the fibreglass substrate. This is not usually the situation we have with a "new to you" car, where stripping back to gel is the way to go.

In terms of the cost of the whole body resto job, I think the soda blasting is a great technology that does lower cost. Seems to me though it is kind of lowering the cost 80% on 20% of the job. One might have to adjust the expectations a bit on how much it will save on the whole job as quoted by a shop.