Elans and Two-post Lifts

[3lotus]

Andy,
Yes , I just put them at the end of the sill . The "vertical" is the front or back of the wheel well depending on which end it is.
The first time I was a little nervous, but now I do it all the time. Never had a problem. I did have visions of the frame dropping out ! But I've had three different Elan's up there and no problems.
Paul

[abstamaria]

Thank you, Paul. I will try it. My best, Andy

[abstamaria]

There has been recent email on the ElanNet on 2-post lifts, so I thought I would reproduce those here for future reference.


From "Bill Rathlef"
Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:47 am (PST)

Randy

The TR, like Luongo, is an ongoing piece of work (this is the 6th year).

It is up in the air now on the 2 post, due for completion this winter. It is a rust free California car that I have extensivly modified / upgraded for performance and comfort. it is now far from stock. The mods have taken more time and $$ than I had anticipated.

I have no intention of selling at this time, it will be a summer shopping car for the wife, possibly a pass on to a grandaughter or my alternate coffin. Then the S2, I am looking forward to lifting the body with this tool. Regards and like Luongo; keep your stick on the ice!

Bill
________________

From: Randy Skinner
Monday, November 21, 2011 8:05 PM

Now if they can just figure out what to do with Luongo . . . ! What's the current state of the TR3, Bill, and are you planning on selling it when it's done?

________________

From: Bill Rathlef
Monday, November 21, 2011 4:38 pm

Rob

I lifted the S1 last week - Hammered the sh*t out of the posts with a 10 pound sledge hammer with the lotus at full lift. No problem with the lift base fastenings, the bobbins yawned. I have just today lifted the TR3 to carry on with its restoration.

I am happy, my back is happy and it is a good innovative product.

As for placing the pads improperly -- did you know a fool that may have done that -- read the manual.

My stick is on the ice, -hockey night in Canada - go Canucks, go.

Wild Bill

________________

From: rob_lamoreaux
Monday, November 21, 2011 1:59 PM

One of the Elan books I have has the analysis done on the pull out force for the bobbins. As I recall it took well over a ton of force to pull he bobbins out of the fiberglass. So supporting the 1,000 lbs or so of the chassis and drivetrain by the 16 or so bolts and bobbins won't be a problem.

The bigger issue is placing the pads correctly so they don't go through the fiberglass floor...

____________________

Rob LaMoreaux
Sent: November 15, 2011 5:54 PM

Andy, Randy, Fred and all

It was great to hear everyone's opinion.

I did the lift with the S1 veeeerrrry slowly. As the MaxJax posts have
safety bar locations to prevent dropping on hydraulic / mechanical failure I
am not concerned about it dropping. Howsoever!! I think I will fab up a
secondary fail safe locking system for just in case, (I think). The supplied
lockbars fit thru the lifting columns under the lifting mechanism and when
the hydraulic pressure is released they bear the vehicle weight. The only
concern I had was the strength of the base mounting bolts to the floor - SO
- after I lifted the car to the top I took a 10 lb. sledge to a post to see
if anything moved, again - no problem.

I took photos and hopefully my more techy wife will help me get them posted.

It froze last night - I should be able to get the stick on the ice yet.

Thanks guys!

Bill
Posted by: "Fred Talmadge"
Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:49 pm (PST)
My only concern would be cracking the fiberglass at the jacking point.
With 4 points and straight lift using these jacks is less stressfull then
using a single point like with a floor jack.
________________

Posted by: "Randy Skinner"
Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:08 am (PST)
In my short time with these cars, and the reading I've done on the forum, I've never heard of a chassis ripping out of it's mounts when the car is lifted this way. But still the debate rages periodically on the forum

Thanks for sharing your positive experiences, Ian. I look forward to getting a shop set up and equipped with a two post lift like the MaxJax.

Randy

_________________

Posted by: "Andres B. Sta. Maria Jr." [email protected] abstamaria2001
Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:03 pm (PST)
Randy, those are my apprehensions, too. But if you read the thread on 2-post lifts in the "common" section of the Elan forum, you will find much discussion and good evidence of successful use of such lifts, particularly by commercial Elan specialists.

Although I would discourage it, I recall there is even a picture of a 2-post lift being used apparently for storage!

The probem with the Elan is how to lift the rear with a floor jack (hence the saddle solution, straddling the exhaust pipe). The 2-post lift solves that problem and does use the jack points specified by Lotus in the Elan manual. The experience of others is encouraging. I hope Bill can learn to post photos as I am looking forward to them - the first garage lift!

Those bobbins in ancient fiberglass will always be regarded with some suspicion, hence that long thread on 2-post lifts! Toyota 2000GT owners have the same discussions.

Stands are probably good safety precautions and I have seen some very tall ones used on heavy vehicles lifted on MaxJax lifts (the model Bill and I have) in threads in the excellent Garage Journal forum.

I will try to lift my Elan when I am done with the current project.

Regards,

Andy
S4 DHC
________________

From: Ian Phillips
Date: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:48 am

I have lifted my Elan by the corners of the bodywork for over 40 years. I never once ever considered the thought that the chassis could 'drop out'. In my layman's opinion, I think that even if all the bonding of the bobbins was badly done or somehow had been torn/overstressed there would be enough engagement for the chassis to stay in place.
Driving on the road imparts more stress on the mountings than the relatively static loading when being jacked up.

Ian Phillips

Right. 500lbs in the car is bound to put some downward stress on those poor fiberglass floors! Fascinating thing about Lotus construction, though (and not to belabour the point), is that the body sets on top of the chassis, so simple gravitation al loads on/in the body mean the body is simply pressing down harder on the chassis and not stressing the mounting points (only the strength of the chassis itself). But when we fight gravity by lifting the car up by the body shell, we are reversing the natural, engineered loading design of the car and literally trying (unintentionally, of course) to pull the body shell off the chassis. Only thing holding the two together are some bolts and nuts/bobbins.
This is what gives everyone the shudders, if we think about it too much

But all in all, if we lift with a two-post, and then put under a couple stands for safety (which is what happens at most safety- conscious shops that I've seen, even when lifting steel unit-body cars), then we've got the best of both: convenience/efficiency AND safety.

Lord knows, Bill, we don't want any rush to choose your coffin type/size/model . . . !!! Especially with two more great cars to build

Randy
________________

Bill Rathlef
Sent: November 14, 2011 1:30 PM

Randy
You have a good point about the use of auxiliary support / safety stands - I will consider it. For well over 40 years I have lifted front and rear by the chassis and supported the car with timbers across the f/g support points - no trouble at all in all that time.I kind of figure that with 2 250 lb. guys aboard the body to chassis stress level during a sporting drive would be far more severe on the chassis support attachments than a benign lift.

Otherwise - the gizmo works great and likely has extended my interest thru wheelchair use 'till death.

Should I use 26/0538 as my coffin???? Or recycle??

Sticks on the ice boys

Regards - Bill

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randy Skinner

> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 12:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Re: 2 post hoist
>
> Thanks for your updates, Bill.
>
> I believe the issue with lifting Elans (baby and +2) is that
> when we lift
> the body, the chassis and running gear are lifted solely by
> their attachment
> points to the body shell. Would the weight of the chassis,
> motor, running
> gear, etc., cause the attachments to literally rip out of the
> fiberglass and
> allow the entire apparatus to come crashing down? Haven't ever
> heard/read of
> that happening, but it's the concern raised all the time.
>
> Guess I might be tempted to have a couple stands to place at
> either end of
> the chassis to support the metal, once the car is lifted to
> standard working
> height. Would be a good safety precaution, I suppose.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Randy
> Sea Ranch
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Rathlef
> Date: Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:31 pm
> Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Re: 2 post hoist
> To: [email protected] <mailto:lotuselan%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:lotuselan%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Ken
> >
> > It is a non problem with a properly maintained car. My whole
> > point was to eliminate the need to use a floor jack and stands
> > and crawling on my suffering back to top up the diff oil.
> >
> > The S1 is tough enough to take the load and it is a joy to sit
> > on a stool and access all the under parts - I will maintain
> the
> > S1, complete the TR3 restro and go to work on the S2
> comfortably
> > and conveniently.
> >
> > My back is now happy!
> >
> > Keep your stick on the ice guys!
> >
> > Bill
> >
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:39 AM

Bill

I will go gently using the fiberglass only as the lift points. The steel side rails on my car were restored when I redid the whole car and they bridge the front to back of the two "jack points". I know I have used a floor jack on those points to lift the car slightly but not off it's wheels. Before MaxJax I would always jack from the front and rear chassis and use three jack stands.

Ken
___________________
On Behalf Of Bill Rathlef
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:40 AM

Andy and Ken

My first test yesterday with the \\max\jax was with my S1 lifted with the pads on the fiberglass structural body junctures at the foreward of the rear wheelwells and the rearward front wheelwells.

Remember, the elan type 26 weighs about 1400 pounds - about 350 pounds per lift point. I figure that Colin had to have calculated far more severe stress than that (4 times at least) from the chassie to the body in reverse engineering. Absolutely no problem - the machine had a 25% load with an Elan lift.
It was worth it just to top up the diff oil. If I ever figure out how to post a photo on the forums I will do it.

Andy, I bought it on your recomendation from a supplier almost next door to me in western Canada - priced right , but going up to $2500 methinks.

Ken, it will lift a +2 with no sweat, my first job with it is to lift a heavier Triumph TR3 to complete its restro then on to my 65 S2.

Sticks on the ice guys.

Bill
______________
From: Andres B. Sta. Maria Jr.
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:32 PM

Congratulations, Bill! So, you lifted your Elan using the 4 corners of the sills? I have yet to lift mine, so that would be reassuring.

Please post a photo or two in the forum. There is a thread on lifting the Elan on a 2-post lifts, so that would be an ideal location.

Many thanks.

Andy




Re: 2 post hoist
Manila

2e.

[abstamaria]

I already posted a report and photo in the Elan section, and so will post another photo here, just to update this thread.

Encouraged by recommendations from Paul and the many others here, I simply lifted the Elan with the jack pads at the sill corners. No apparent cracks and the chassis didn?t fall off. What a relief and what a joy!

I bled the clutch and then adjusted the ride height, taking the car out for a run after the initial adjustments, and then up again on the lift. It would have been quite a chore with a floor jack and stands, but is so easy with a two-post lift.

Here's the Elan on the lower of two settings, the perfect height for working on the suspension (I worked sitting on a rolling stool; what luxury!).

When I installed the lift, I assumed I wouldn't use it on the Elan, so this is quite a treat. Many thanks, guys. I appreciate all the advice.

Andy

[zacharym]

You don't need to be so concerned regarding the post lifts. These lifts can be easily installed to park your vehicles as well as other things.
____________
2 post lift

[alexblack13]

My concern is suspension droop. Ok if the car is fitted with later tech' bushes and drive-shafts. Not good if it is not. Leaving the car with suspension at full travel will damage drive couplings and the suspensions rubber bushes.

Take care now. Great ramp for working on the car though. The best without doubt. Just watch the suspension and drive-shaft components.

Al ' ......

[bcmc33]

Leaving the car with suspension at full travel will damage drive couplings and the suspensions rubber bushes.

My first thoughts as well, Alex, as my car is fitted with rubber/metal bushes. No such a problem when fitted with poly bushes.

[Bill]

I have the TR on mine now. I would not store the Elan for any extended time frame 'tho. Thats not an issue with me, I have a big shop.

Can someone step me thru posting a photo on the site, then I would get some photos up - you could PM me.

I would be eternally gratefull, I just have no berd in me.

Bill

[gjz30075]

Bill, have your picture on your computer somewhere. When posting a reply, go to "Browse..." find it, open it, then "Add the File".
Do a "Preview" of the reply before submitting to make sure that is what you want.

[YellowS4DHC]

My concern is suspension droop. Ok if the car is fitted with later tech' bushes and drive-shafts. Not good if it is not. Leaving the car with suspension at full travel will damage drive couplings and the suspensions rubber bushes.

I would add CV joint boots, depending on the CV joint design.

I built a nice adapter for my floor jack to pick up the rear end without loading anything improperly only to find that when the rear wheels left the ground the inboard CV joint boots were stressed to the point that they will tear if left long in that position.

I made a nice tool and now I'm disinclined to use it.

Rick

'72 Europa TC
'69 Elan S4 DHC
'67 S800 Coupe
'57 T1 Speedster

[alexblack13]

Hi Rick,/ All ....

Good point! Watch those boots too.

I too made a tool. Which I use with the car on my (4 post) ramp. It lifts the wheels via the bottom of the Chapman strut. Designed not to do any damage though & I can lift 1 side at a time too if I want to... Slightly shorter rear shock rods means I don't have driveshaft worries at the CV's.. Mine are Spyder items though and they still have two couplings at the diff' ... I have the rear on all poly bushes though so no worries there...

I do like the two posters though... But not for long term 'parking' use....

Alex B .....

[Bill]

Hey all,
My boy came over and showed me how to post photos... thanks for all the tips. Now I need to see if I can remember how to do it after he leaves!
Bill

[alexblack13]

Way to go Bill... Posting like a pro' now man!

lift looks just great Bill. Nice job!

Alex..

[rgh0]

Hi Bill
How far apart did you set your Max Jax?

I am just setting mine up now and trying to figure out how to set it to best handle a range of car widths e.g my Elan and Esprit and Landcruiser

cheers
Rohan

[Bill]

Alex. thanks for your help, your instructions were bang on - it was my befuddlement that was my problem!

Rohan; the posts are 90 inches apart from the inside edges of the floor base plates. Be sure that the posts are mounted to a LEVEL plane surface, I had to build one base plate mounting area by about one inch with mortar due to a slightly sloping floor. To not do so could have you lifting on a tilt. If I had to I could lit my Toyota Tundra (height limitation not withstanding), it is 80 inches wide. As it is I can lift and store the TR3 and park the Elan under.

I have another blurb in Garys Sows Ear thread with my latest type 36 aquisition.

Thanks for all your help guys.