Recommended Modifications for S3?

[neilcritter]

I've been on LotusElan.net for several months now seeking ideas and input as I try to finish a stalled S3 project. You can read more about the project I acquired in these two posts, but in summary it has a finished body, rebuilt engine with Weber Carbs and rebuilt water pump, rebuilt transmission and Spyder Chassis. This was the listing I bought viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49801 and this is my blog I've started on it viewtopic.php?f=19&t=50881

The man who started the project intended it to be a racecar, and a lot of the original interior parts are missing. I have the seats, dash and convertible top. I'm tempted to finish it as a tasteful racecar looking original on the outside, but the inside has reliable modifications.

My question is, with the benefit of time, what modifications would you suggest?

My friends and I like to travel across state lines (we are in in Oklahoma) on long tours, so we need cars to be reliable and able to be fixed on the road if a component goes out.

At present my plans are:
-Huco fuel pump placed to the trunk near the tank and get rid of the mechanical pump
-Pertronix electric ignition
-Mini Alternator instead of the generator / neg earth conversion
-Radiator fan
-New radiator (not sure which one to get)
-Possibly put in an electric water pump (Davies Craig EWP80) between the radiator and engine since that can be replaced on the road if needed. NOT SURE if it would work with an impeller still in?
-Possibly a swirl pot
-Electric pop-up headlamps
-New wiring harness given all the electrical components and for safety.
-New hand break (the original is missing, considering modified vs. original design with new parts).

Thank you in advance for any guidance and support. All ideas are welcome! The professional mechanic I am working with has done race cars and a lot of British cars but this is his first Elan. We are having fun with it but I would like some input from pros like you!

Best wishes,
Neil

[steve lyle]

-Huco fuel pump placed to the trunk near the tank and get rid of the mechanical pump
I'll leave this feedback to the people running Webers. I've got Strombergs, and just don't see the value of this change.

-Pertronix electric ignition
Yes, worth it to minimize the time you have to mess with the distributor, since it's hard to get to. Bring along spare pts and condenser just in case the Pertronix dies. DBE has a verson that incorporates a rev limiter, might be worth looking into.

- Mini Alternator instead of the generator / neg earth conversion
Absolutely.

-Radiator fan
Yes

-New radiator (not sure which one to get)
The biggest that will fit

-Possibly put in an electric water pump (Davies Craig EWP80) between the radiator and engine since that can be replaced on the road if needed. NOT SURE if it would work with an impeller still in?
Why?

-Possibly a swirl pot
Why?

-Electric pop-up headlamps
If your vacuum mechanism works, I wouldn't bother. If it doesn't, and mine had problems, I would (and did).

-New wiring harness given all the electrical components and for safety.
Good idea.

-New hand break (the original is missing, considering modified vs. original design with new parts).
Why modify it?

In my experience, you're more likely to run into problems with mods, than with going with the stock design. I'd especially be careful with complex mods, like the electric water pump. Especially when it's not clear to me what problem it's solving.

[mbell]

I pretty much agree with Steve. For radiator I'd just stick with standard wide radiator. Maybe get it re-cord.

I wouldn't bother with the electric water pump on a fresh rebuild engine. Water pump is unlikely to be an issue.

The petronix units are fine but do fail "randomly", so might be good to get a spare to carry. If your distributer isn't great to start with then it might be better to replace it or upgrade it. Should be sorted if a good engine rebuild was done thou.

The other very common mod is CV axles. Which if you don't already have would probably be very sensible for your use.

Given the use case a 5th grader might be nice. But there isn't really a drop in solution for that and you'd be replacing one if the best shifting gear boxes ever.

[HCA]

EFI
EDIS

[David1953]

I mostly agree with Steve.
Most of the problems with the original are down to lack of maintenance back in the day. More modern electronics fail randomly.
I would change the wiring harness, as the connectors have not aged well.
If you are thinking of long runs in high temperature an oil cooler may be good.
What diff do you have? For touring I would go for 3.55, or even lower as others on this forum have discussed.

[Spyder fan]

Neil,
For cooling a lot of people here have used the Coolexperts radiator, this is based on the Triumph full width radiator that was original fitment to earlier elans and +2's. It has the benefit of being manufactured from Aluminium (lighter and some say more conductive of heat as well). I have a similar radiator in my S4 and it keeps things cool on the hottest day and the worst traffic.

click here https://www.coolexperts.co.uk/product/l ... struction/

I use CV joint drive shafts on my cars, I have had them on my +2 since 2008 with no issue and over 40'000 miles. Now that the doughnuts/couplings are so expensive and the quality of them sometimes being questionable it makes sense to swap to CV shafts. Kelvedon in the UK do a good set https://kelvedonlotus.co.uk/product/cv- ... haft-pair/ RD enterprises do a complete kit in the US complete with uprated diff output shafts which might be a good choice if your engine is uprated.

The electric pop up headlight system is another easy choice if your vacuum pod/s need replacing. The pods are an incredible price now at over £200 if you can get hold of them. I have had electric operation on my +2 since 2014 works great with no issues, I swapped because I went through 3 pods in 6 years!

Lots of use coupled with regular maintenance will stop most problems occurring, if you notice a problem no matter how minor, get it fixed as soon as possible. It's amazing how little issues mount up into big ones.

[661]

Personal view. Full disclosure, I chapeau to the original but have no fear in swapping to things that work.
My experience is with rebuilding my S4SE twice over 35 years and building a GTS race car. And keeping them going!

The road car has had the mechanical pump for 35 years and still works fine. I have recently fitted a small inline electric pump in the boot for priming the carbs only. If you are thinking of rebuilding the mechanical pump then I can see the mind wandering to electric thoughts, otherwise leave it.
Electronic ignition. Yes. I have Luminition and a rev limiter on the road car.
The rad is a wide Triumph rad. It runs a bit hot at times. The GTS has TTRs biggest. It can run a bit cold as I don't run a thermostat on it.
Water pump. Stay mechanical. Think about the Burton cartridge
New loom. Definitely. Being radical, think about a modern loom with modern wiring and connectors. The thing that goes wrong the most is electrics, usually earths. I used DCE ( they have a Stateside presence) in the GTS, but it may be overkill ($$) in the road car.
Driveshaft conversion. Yes. After the standard I converted to Spyder shafts about 20 years ago. I've just converted to Elantrikbits. Now they are fantastic. Highly recommended. The GTS car has TTR solid shafts.
Can't recall if the S3 has a servo. I'd bin it if it has. On the road car I run +2 front discs and calipers and no servo. The std brakes are fine, however.
Alternator. No brainer
Swirl pot. Why?
Electric pop ups, only if the original is not working.
New handbrake. Why? Get the original to 'work'.
Rad fan. Yes. Get your rad first!

Personal views......

[neilcritter]

Thank you all for your replies!

Steve Lyle, mbell, HCA, David 1953, Spyder fan, 661 I appreciate all of your swift feedback and I welcome more from anyone else who wants to comment.

For now I'm not going to do the electric water pump since the engine and mechanical pump was rebuilt.

I'm going to research more about the radiators and I do appreciate the recommendation for Coolexperts and I'm also reviewing what is available in the US.

Today I spent a few hours at the shop with the mechanic and we made a list and sent it to our first supplier for all of the needed brake assembly parts, missing clutch hydronic parts, and some of our preliminary fuel items (new tank and new Hufo fuel pump), Pertronix electric ignition, Mini Alternator. Cross my fingers the parts are easily to source... especially handbrake items.

For now I've been persuaded against the electric water pump, but I'm still open to the swirl pot.... more research needed and I'm curious if anyone has had good or bad experience with it who has had one.

Thanks for all the feedback for the CV joints. You'll be happy to know that Jack the prior owner already changed them. Famous Frank posted about this before I found the project and described them as "fully adjustable Lower Control Arms (heim joints is correct)... But it also has Constant Velocity Joint Axle assemblies replacing the Donuts. These are the CV Axles that come with the special stub axles coming out of the diff that don't require adapter plates."

https://lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49694

Spider fan and 661 commented on that thread last year. You may recall it.

I'll keep you posted as things change and as I keep changing my mind!

Please keep the feedback coming! The mechanic and I both really value this community and the experience you share!

Neil

[HCA]

Not sure why you have a fixation on a swirl pot or even where it came from if all you are doing is nursing two Webers.

You talk of a pump in the rear, but for what - the swirl pot or the Webers? or are you planning to pump electrically to the swirl pot and mechanically from the swirl pot to the Webers? Or will there be another electric pump somewhere?

Swirl pots are for EFI or where there is radical fuel starvation, eg racing with four Amals.

[snowyelan]

I believe the OP was contemplating a coolant swirl pot, nothing to do with fuel. I see no reason for it myself. I have added a rad cap in the upper coolant hose. Careful filling and bleeding addresses the issue but I'm lazy and raising the left front corner while filling seems a hassle.

I will add that a quality wiper contact style battery cutoff (easily accessable) is my top suggestion. Possibly second to a decent sized fire extinguisher. Elans seem to die in a 'blaze' of glory more often than most English cars.

[steve lyle]

Possibly the source of the coolant swirl tank interest is the fact that Leno has them on his cars, supposedly to ‘de-air’ the coolant. Since 99.9% of us don’t use one (best guess), I’d only go with one as a last coolant resort.

DBE sells one. I asked Ken if I needed one, he said no.

[HCA]

Aha - terminology!

If it is in relation to water and not fuel, then it need not be a laborious thought - just fit one and try it! If you do not like it, then all that has happened is the ruination of a top hose.

I think a better option is fitting a combined filler neck and thermostat housing with a decent quality wide radiator…

[neilcritter]

Yes. Steve is right, and I THANK YOU ALL again for your replies! It is a coolant swirl pot and I got the idea from when I watched this episode of Jay Leno's Garage of his 1969 DHC with Weber Carbs (screenshots included) prior to buying my project.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gWWzTf3q800

At the 5 min mark they go through what they did to modify the cooling system which included a large aluminum radiator with pusher electric fan and a swirl pot.

As much issues as people describe having with overheating, I thought every bit helps. Maybe it's unnecessary (if 99% of you are not using them), but if it's something Leno's mechanics suggested I thought I should consider it too.

In 2010 the forum had this debate on the topic, and I was curious if anyone had additional experience on it since there really wasn't a firm answer: https://lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=19878&start=15

Has anyone other the Jay Leno installed a coolant swirl pot and if so do they have a before/after review of the effectiveness of it?

And Jay, if you're out there, how's it going with your swirl pot? Love it? Hate it? Not sure if it helps?

I hope to meet you again someday....
Maybe at a Lotus Elan meetup!

Last time I was in middle school. Note the front grill on my teeth dates me to 6th grade or so.

I'll let you guys know what I decide. I think my mechanic won't think it's necessary either. When it briefly came up earlier today he fell back on the importance of understanding and using the thermostat and pressure cap correctly.

What I may do, just to test the question, is finish the car initially without it, test the system with measurements (some kind of systematic temperature readings) and the add the swirl pot and measure it again.... unless someone already has!!!!!

Neil

[Andy8421]

Lots of confusion on here over the years about swirl pots and header tanks. Tony Thompson racing sell a 'swirl pot' that is actually a header tank.

https://www.tonythompsonracing.co.uk/parts/models/elan-s1/radiator-header-tankswirlpot-26r-please-specify-elan/

If you use a radiator that doesn't have a header tank built in then you are going to need to put one somewhere. The TTR solution is a combined header tank and mounting point for the rad cap. It is fitted in the top hose at a high point on the cooling circuit.

A swirl pot generates a swirling cyclonic action that encourages the collapse of any steam bubbles in the coolant and the release of trapped air - helpful if the water pump design causes the pump to cavitate. As a bonus, it can also act as a header tank.

Merlin explain it well:

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/knowledge_base_articles/view/cooling-system-header-tanks-in-your-race-car-323

I don't think an Elan needs a swirl pot. I have never seen one used in any racing series I have participated in.

Edit: With all respect to Jim Hall, Jay's modified Elan hasn't been a complete success. I am not sure I would use it as the template for modifications.

[elanner]

All your original questions have been solidly answered and I agree with them all. For cooling, I would get your standard, wide, S3 radiator recored and fit a 9" Spal fan (maybe two if you're worried). Then fit a blanking panel under it. Unless you have a Twin Cam that likes to run hot, as some of them seemingly do, that should provide adequate cooling .

A good upgrade would be to change all the bulbs to LEDs. Your turn signal flasher probably won't work with both front and rear converted to LEDs (due to insufficient current draw for thermal operation) so you could just change the rears. You'll need an electronic flasher if you want to do them all.

See if you can find a good, bright replacement for the headlamps. I've not searched recently but have never found anything in the US that looks workable. UK replacements have the wrong dipping pattern, presumably. Let us know what you find!

Nick