Lotus Elan

Fuel injection options (Patton)

PostPost by: h20hamelan » Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:28 pm

Looking at various options for injection on my +2 stromberg

http://www.pattonmachine.com/TBI-Components.htm

I hear good things, wondering if there are any long term cases here?

The Jenvy seems an expensive kit.

https://store.jenvey.co.uk/throttle-bod ... r-tdp40-48

Not as expensive.
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PostPost by: The Veg » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:14 pm

Forgive me if this is overstating the obvious or a bit pedantic, but while Patton has a Stromberg kit, I poked around Jenvey's site a bit and didn't see anything for Stromberg. Do you have each type of head available?
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:12 pm

Suppose I do have each head. Only planning for the Stromberg. Guess I figured there are some off the shelf kits. Never thought anything past price on Jenvey. I still have not found much of interest for Stromberg since really starting to think about it this week.

I have spoken with a few who have the Patton system in kit form, and are over the moon. My main reason for wanting it, is because it is offered with a barometric pressure sensor. The kit is OBD2 and self learning, so no more worries. Though I still have not heard back from Patton. My only question was if the 7,000ft mtn passes to go anywhere from here warrant the baro sensor. My belief is it gets close, maybe not ultimately necessary.

One gent pointed out the Idle Air Control, even thou Patton says its more for automatic and air con cars. He found it helps control warm up idle and deceleration.
He also points out “removing all the excess metal on the outside of them. All you need is the front where the air cleaners bolt on, the mounting flange to the cross over and the venturi. All the inside passages and hetting is epoxied over smooth. The outside if the carbs for things like the bi-metallic spring, chokes, etc are not required so i am going to remove th unnecessary metal”

Seems to me, $2k is a fair price. Outside of “removing excess metal” if that is something one is concerned about!
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:20 pm

And I think he meant, you dont need the front. Only the tops of the carbs. So obviously room for improvement if you have access to a metal 3D printer, or its worth a few of us hiring it out?
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:29 pm

I found this Stromberg Lotus TC specific case study on his web site to be very interesting. Kind of buried the lead; I forget how I navigated to the link... :D

http://www.pattonmachine.com/Files/PattonArticle.pdf

Perhaps someone here knows the author Don Kuzma in the Cleveland area? Maybe reach out to the Cleveland Area Lotus group?

https://lotusltd.com/local-chapters/

A few detail points/questions/grist for the mill. Not based on personal FI experience, just on researching the topic. I decided to put my FI dreams on hold for now until I give my Weber 45’s a full shot.

I would not be that happy with the GM ECU idea if it involves shipping chips back and forth every time the map requires modification. Lots of programable ECU choices available now; the referenced Lotus article is pretty dated and I didn’t dig in to what else the supplier has on offer now.

If you go with a programable ECU like Emerald or equivalent, probably easier to purchase the loom and sensors they recommend. The various suppliers offer ‘fly lead looms’ that would result in a very polished install with well documented wiring. Although I have not checked it out, I am guessing the various UK suppliers would be able to provide a pretty good starting map for a 1600 cc four cylinder running dual Strombergs.

Not sure if the system uses a crank position sensor or just uses the converted dizzy for position and timing information? Where I was going is to check out whether one of the available crank position sensor brackets that are specific to the Lotus TC would work with whatever this system uses.

From my reading it is very important to get the crank position signal right, and I always thought it better to go with an engine specific mount. But that is me, as I don’t have deep skills is metal fabrication. If this system does indeed take position data from the dizzy, would that potentially introduce a bunch of scatter? All a question not a knock.

I have not really reviewed Stromberg compatible throttle bodies. Looks like a cool idea for a Federal engine. As the setup uses siamesed inlets I would expect it would take a bit of fiddling to get the mapping right, but cam position should not be required.

Just from reading here, definitely go with the 3D mappable ignition option. Several folks here have mentioned that just using a 3D ignition (throttle position and crank position inputs used by the ECU to control timing) even without full FI improved running characteristics substantially and worked OK on properly jetted Webers. Sorry, outside my knowledge base, but the usual ignition approach seems to be wasted spark with coil packs, which seems a better/more modern approach than a converted dizzy.

Just a few random thoughts. I like the idea of Stromberg compatible throttle bodies, but not as keen on the rest of it. I think I have seen some other Stromberg TB setups out of the UK, but I didn’t save the links as I had the head converted from Stromberg to Weber 45’s. Here is an example from a quick search

https://www.classicfuelinjection.co.uk/products.htm

Last general thought regarding FI. What I took from the folks here that have done FI on a Lotus TC is that two areas that are commonly underestimated for cost and hassle are the high pressure fuel supply details and the mapping/tuning. General advice is to select the ECU based on locally available support, particularly if using a dyno shop at any point. The GM ECU approach might be more hassle in the end. That said, I haven’t seen anyone else who has mapped a Stromberg head TC, and as this supplier clearly has, could be a good thing.

HTH. Interesting topic.

Stu
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:47 pm

The chips was the OBD1, OBD2 is self learning

I believe the $2k vs $5k puts the other options well beyond my pockets.

I had though, and have been collecting/saving bits for a VW throttle body using DiGiFant controls, also 1983 ford system, but I will not like the looks of this style, and there are issues beyond what I am wanting to get involved with. Mainly the injector ports, and intake plenum. Though my Volvo redblock intake fits fairly closely I believe. And for me, time is precious, and at this point, kids in gr 2 and 10, some finishing university, some out working. I just cant dedicate as much time as required. Not that I am not keen.

It uses dizzy signal, and from what the gent said, as he has had it installed for 9 years of very happy motoring. Wheather its a trigger off the front crank pulley or dizzy, but I believe from there webside there is no crank trigger.

To your last point Stu, it seems the cost, and that is total. Though the Baro sensor is not included, cant imagine its more than $100.
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:59 pm

Wondered about Baro sensor as well. Forgot to mention. Would this guy’s flash include the input? Note some ECU’s like Emerald actually have the baro sensor installed directly in the ECU, so that may be the case here?

At any rate, a baro sensor is a 100% must for any setup, particularly in the freaking Rocky Mountain Trench! Years ago I stripped the SPICA mechanical FI system off of a two litre Alfa TC and went to Weber 40’s. Way better at the time, but I definitely missed the altitude correction.

Take your point on overall cost. Just not sure this actually saves all that dough.

Holley offers an ECU that claims self learning. I really would be doubtful that the self learning feature would work without a bunch of shots to get in the range for a particular engine. Again, no direct experience or knowledge, but I absolutely would not go in expecting it to be all that is required.

Cheers!

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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:05 pm

They sure do proclaim a full kit for $2k. And, from who I have spoken with, and what they advertise. I dont doubt it. Outside of the machining of surfaces, or my hopes of a 3D or other option to clean it up.
Which brings me to another, and maybe my main reason for this.
Though its a shallow selfish point, and as you all here may know me as more of an international, modern metrosexual function over form type. The henious bonnet bulge will disappear, for the love of aesthetics. :lol:
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:57 pm

Wasted spark is likely better, but how much better? Would need some big time analysis.

Most systems with o2 are self learning I think?

Did a bit more poking around, crank trigger it seems.

http://www.pattonmachine.com/tr6/ficonv.htm

Thou he states “Optional Lucas distributor conversion to electronic” too?
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:37 pm

Actually, I seem not so international. As last time I was in St Petersburg, citizens were more obedient.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?index=6&lis ... nyC70ubXog
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:36 am

Good news from Rick Patton
Yes, complete kit, about $2200 gives plug n play. Baro (actually Maniifold Absolute Pressure MAP) and he is glad I have chosen Idle Air Control.
Don’t know if there is much else to report, other than I am keen and wil go for it! :mrgreen:
It will accompany my Tremec T5 nicely. 8)
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PostPost by: The Veg » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:30 pm

Can't wait to read all about it- keep us posted!
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:10 am

Hoping Rick will break the kit up, on anything I can get locally new from GM.
This reduces brokerage fees. Also, eBay has Global Shipping program. This includes all fees, which nowadays is about the most important thing. Easy people, list it. Send the eBay listing number, and no hassles. Outside of whatever fees eBay charges. So make the seller aware of the additional 2% or whatever it is. Have the extra 2% e transferred or better yet, Visa Direct. The only problem with Visa Direct is one must be discrete with bank info. So a quick tele sorts this.
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PostPost by: Bud English » Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:17 pm

I even created a Buy it Now listing once as "Quote for John" and listed at my asking price with no picture. John was watching it and paid through eBay. No problems, reduced shipping costs and no risk of someone else snatching it up. :wink:
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:43 pm

Bud English wrote:I even created a Buy it Now listing once as "Quote for John" and listed at my asking price with no picture. John was watching it and paid through eBay. No problems, reduced shipping costs and no risk of someone else snatching it up. :wink:



Good to hear, I figured it should work!
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