Lotus Elan

Fitting a Carter 4070 pump

PostPost by: simonknee » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:48 am

Hi all,

After getting fed up with the pock-pock-pock-pock (and sometimes POCK-POCK-POCK) of the little square facet fuel pump in the boot. I did a bit of research. i.e. googled a lot. Many people with many old vehicles don't think much of the Facet device. In particular I was convinced by an article (that I have now lost track of) that claimed they (facet) are high pressure (relatively) and low volume when what a weber wants is low pressure and high volume. The writer went on to say that all a fuel regulator does is restrict flow and so restricts volume too.
This led me to the Carter 4070 rotary vane pump which is not available in the UK but you can buy from Jegs in the US via ebay for a very reasonable price. Just ?60 or so once carriage is included.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carter-P4070- ... SwBahVchuD

I am in the middle of fitting this device - waiting on some more Earls fittings that in total cost more than the pump.

img_20160106_190139.jpg and


So far so good. It appears well made. Comes with a good mounting kit. It fits in the boot leaving room for the spare tire. A quick run shows it to be very quiet.

Has anybody got experience of this pump good or bad?
Simon
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PostPost by: RogerFrench » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:51 am

I had one in the Elan, and it was fine until one day it stopped working. No warning, it just quit.
Right now I have a Precision pump that came from one of the many parts stores here, O'Reilly's, and it's working fine. It fits between the tank and the side of the car, just inside the bumper. The local shop was able to supply immediately when I called on a Sunday morning after the Carter went on strike.
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PostPost by: Stevie-Heathie » Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:44 pm

Looks good but what happens when you need a boiled sweet? :-)
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PostPost by: simonknee » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:13 pm

Ah, well spotted - it is temporary :D

There is a lack of bolts holding the pump to the body. Didn't want to drill yet more until I know exactly where it'll end up. Hence the Smiths tin supporting things - though the sweets (ah, you sweet dusty beauties) are long gone and this one rattles reassuringly around the boot containing spare fuses and bulbs.
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PostPost by: RotoFlexible » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:30 pm

I have a Carter (I think it is a 4070) mounted in that location. (Photos are on a different computer, I can post them later.) It is not dead quiet, but not too bad. The power connection arrangement seems a bit precarious - I may be missing something, but it does not inspire confidence. I think the output pressure is fine but I fitted a regulator just in case. I did without the fancy fittings. So far, no problems.
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PostPost by: Europatc » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:24 pm

I have Facet fitted to my Elan and Europa and they have been no issues what so ever. As for the noise level, there both mounted on rubber mounts and they only time you can hear anything is when you turn the ignition key and even then its minimal
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PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:06 am

Was waiting for someone to stand up for the Facet...

Ditto.

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PostPost by: simonknee » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:40 am

To be fair my Facet was quiet(er) in the past (it was on the rubber mounts too). I am pretty sure that up-rating the fuel lines was what upset it - a quest started because of the horrible smell of petrol in the boot. As you say it is noisy to start, then calms down. My theory is that this is as it primes itself and the system. Once saturated with fuel the POCK-POCK-POCK becomes pock-pock-pock then tick-tick-tick until perhaps even tick... ...tick... However I have tried two Facet in my current setup and neither of them ever calm down. I think the wider bore of my fuel pipes is preventing the Facet ever reaching that calmer situation... well it's a theory anyway.

The Germans (my wife was born in Berlin) have a word for this kind of thing - schlimmbesserung - which describes how in an attempt to make something better you actually make it worse, it can be literally translated as bad-bettering.
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PostPost by: awatkins » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:11 pm

I dumped the carter 4070s on my GT40 for Facet Duralifts because the Carters are so noisy, even when rubber mounted. Also at "4-8 psi" isn't that pressure likely too high for Webers? Mine ran at about 5.5 psi.

To be fair to Facet, can we state which pump type we're talking about? They make several. The Facet 477060
is a standard in the Lambo world for use with webers and is essentially silent when rubber mounted. They were "Bendix Elmira Interruptor" when supplied on early Lamborghinis. Since then the have converted from points operation to transistor switching and are quite reliable. Some versions are used in aircraft.
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PostPost by: simonknee » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:40 pm

The little square thing they call a "Solid State Pump" that you can get for ?40.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Product.d ... Ahae8P8HAQ

This is my previous install:

img_20140728_192014.jpg and


I fully appreciate that nobody can accuse me of over spending when it comes to fuel pumps :D

Really my only complaint was the noise - when it is possible to hear the fuel pump over the Elan's exhaust it really is time to do something. So I went looking for alternatives and this random site google brought me to
http://www.racetep.com/webfuelspark.html#webfuel
which made me go looking for the Carter. Now they may be talking baloney but I can always put the Facet back in if I miss the pock-pock-pock. :D
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PostPost by: awatkins » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:22 pm

Jim Inglese has this to say about fuel pressure:

FUEL REQUIREMENTS
Weber carburetion only needs a low-pressure, constant-volume fuel supply, so a stock block-mounted mecahnical fuel pump works fine, which usually puts out 7-12 psi. The key is to regulate the fuel pressure at 2.5 psi to 3 psi. For this reason, I supply a special 0-4 psi fuel regulator with every system, because a standard pressure regulator will not lower the pressure enough; they typically start at 4 psi and go up to 9 psi. So, the right regulator is a key component. I use, and recommend the Holley #12-804.
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PostPost by: vstibbard » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:01 am

HI from what I experienced with one of these fitted to my Super Seven when purchased is that it is delivering fuel in 4-6lb range which is to high for the Webers so you will need to reduce the pressure.

I've never had any issues with facet pumps, cube of cylindrical used in numerous race and rally cars,in all cases with Webers I've used a fuel pressure regulator, normally the basic Malpassi type, on the seven I have a holley type.

Recent Elan that we've just dyno'd has a pump designed to flow fuel at pressure range for Webers, I still checked the pressure before we dyno'd the car tonsure it was in spec

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PostPost by: simonknee » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:27 pm

First impression is that I've swapped the POCK-POCK-POCK for a whirrrrrrrr.
I would say the Carter is quieter than a noisy Facet and louder than a quiet Facet.

Just to clarify once more I have had no problems with the Facet other than the noise.
They've never failed on me (unlike the Burlen/SU that the DPO fitted) so I am not a Facet basher!
It just seems that in my current "wide bore" fuel setup the Facet perhaps never fully "primes" itself.
Not a faulty Facet either since a second one did the same thing.

Lets see how long it takes before the noise of the Carter annoys me - though I think I can further improve the mounting.

Simon
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PostPost by: simonknee » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:32 pm

In reply to RotoFlexible.

RotoFlexible wrote:The power connection arrangement seems a bit precarious - I may be missing something,


Yes you are! The kit comes with a little spring clip that holds the power connectors in place. I was a bit worried about these until I discovered this.
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PostPost by: nomad » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:35 pm

I've been discouraging people from fitting the hammering cube Facet's for year's. They're only advantage is that they are available everywhere. I believe the best Facet pump has been mentioned. I believe Facet call's it their "Gold" pump and their literature claims it to be their most reliable. It has a dome on the top and a removable filter on the bottom and they apparently acquired it from Bendix.
I fitted a used one, still a Bendix, to my MGB in the early 1970's. The pump had been on two other cars before I used it and dated from sometime in the 60's.
A friend now own's that car and that pump is still going strong after at least 150K miles and 50 years. He thought it was going west a while ago but after cleaning the filter it seems as good as ever.
That is the pump that I would recommend but being a cheapskate I'm currently running Airtex 6018's on 3 British cars. Bought for $27 from Amazon.

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