Some Thoughts

[jcocking]

Efficiently moderating a website is not difficult. As a previous company director sponsoring many websites it was something we would perform regularly and withdraw our sponsorship if they were allowed to get 'out of hand' with any use of bad language. Checking to see how well this is done can simply be achieved by using the website search engine and placing such selective words in the search field and see what posts have previously used bad language with no attempt to just simply remove them EVEN WHEN BEEN ASKED TO. Sadly this forum is badly moderated IMHO as far as 'longer/higher gear' members seem to be able to get away with it..........hiding behind their keyboards in some belief they are protected. I replied to one foul thread using words only that had been obviously acceptable to the forum as not previously removed.

No point in just preaching not to do it...........moderators need to fulfil their responsibilities especially when it is written in the rules, and set an example by getting the posts removed. It is so simple for anyone who controls the website. I don't intend for sure discussing this matter anymore in the 'private messages' btw

Thank you for your feedback.

I am going to decipher your message.

The forum is badly moderated for the following reasons:

1. The members use bad words and we do not edit every post that uses bad words.
2. We allow longer/higher gear members to get away with using bad words
3. You were recently moderated for using bad words.

So let me respond....

1. Being an engineer, I do not like working on people's guesses or assumptions. So I ran a series of queries against the database using 500 of the most common bad words. To see the words go to https://gist.github.com/jamiew/1112488.

The top twenty words, with frequency count, are:

hell 516
damn 394
bloody 283
bugger 276
butt 134
ass 96
shit 84
pissed 81
arse 64
piss 63
bitch 60
pissing 52
cock 46
bastard 42
dick 42
bum 41
anal 39
sex 36
willy 28

The top five make up 0.6% of the posts. The remaining words are 0.3% of the posts. Is this out of hand? It all depends.

The challenge is words can be dirty or clean depending on the use. Most use of the word anal is about being picky. i.e. He is anal about his paint job. Cock means a misalignment.

The question is, Are these words considered dirty? Growing up, my mum would have washed my mouth with soap for these, but language has changed in the last 50 years. Most of these words are considered common place. Do the members consider these words to be dirty and want them removed from the forum or prevented from using them on the forum?

2. Yes, we do allow our tenured members more leeway than a new member. Pretty much the way every club in the world works. We ask that all members treat others with respect.

3. You are complaining that the forums are not being moderated. Yet, you complain that you were just moderated for bad language. Kind of an oxymoron. Also, please remember you were moderated for personally attacking other members, not the word choices used.


If you find a post that has questionable language, please report it. We will review it and deal with it.

What are other members thoughts on words. Does the LotusElan.net have a problem with dirty langauge/words?

[toomspj]

Jeff

I think you have a splendid balance in the way you manage the forum. I think it is important to give some leeway for members to vent, but also necessary to step in when the comments turn to personal abuse.

As for the use of particular words? I find it is not the actual words used, but whether they are intended to hurt or intimidate someone.

By the way, I was astonished at the way the recent stuck clutch topic suddenly got taken so personally. You could sense blood vessels bursting and typewriter keys being hit so hard that the paper was being broken - such fun to watch.... Sometimes with electronic messaging it's better to sleep on an angry response before sending it.



Paul

[UAB807F]

hmmm. Now I'm wide open to flack here, but I'll say that "bad words" don't really bother me.

As you say, common language has changed wildly since most of us were lads and what would have been censored as not suitable for adults back in my childhood is now on TV after the 9:00pm watershed (UK). Or maybe before if it's live TV

What does get me is when this sort of language is used aggressively or with intent to insult someone, and you can only get that by reading the context.

For example, I would be happy for a post to get pulled if it called someone "a bl##dy idiot" whereas I wouldn't be bothered at all by someone saying a particular job was "a bl##dy swine". It's all in the context and I guess most of us can work that out for ourselves ?

Brian

[Wickey]

Someone missed the point here...........you should NOT be able to put the word which I will disguise here as F then U then C then K in the search engine and get any result as they should have simply been removed long ago.

I was also told by a very nice family guy who was a past member here when I was hoping to buy his Elan that he had specifically asked for the removal of a personal 'attack' post that used the word upfucking and you declined as the post is still again available to be viewed containing this word. This was the old post I could not resist replying to using only words that I checked in the forum search engine before typing in. What was plain to see was the favoritism given between a higher gear who has used bad words in an attack on an individual without the post removed but a newer member gets theirs removed when only using the same approach.

As far as I could gather from the conversation he left the site forum because of it being badly moderated and allowing other higher geared members to get away with actually calling newer members as 'lowly'. Grossly unacceptable behavior despite not bad language.

Moderators IMHO need to be seen to be acting at the very least 'fair' and clean up any posts permanently containing any bad language especially when it is not even disguised.

And........no burst blood vessels here.

[Spyder fan]

Dear all,

I have had a few of my posts removed in the past where things have got a little heated. However I try to make my posts friendly and helpful and I very much realise that new members have as much right to post and make a contribution as does somebody who has posted here for years.

Joining a lively and popular web forum is a bit like joining in on a long running conversation at the pub when you have arrived late and only catch the last two sentences before butting in. If it's your friends at the bar and you have known each other for years, they will dig your ribs, have a laugh and bring you up to speed. If they don't know you, then it's up to you to introduce yourself and try and join in amicably.

These days I limit myself to starting or joining conversations on the forums where I feel I can make a useful contribution. This contribution can be technical, humorous or simply to give advice on purchasing cars or sourcing difficult to obtain spares. I have learned that sarcasm and irony don't travel too well around a global community especially when those two forms of wit have a unique British flavour, my post mentioned earlier in this topic was intended to be ironic. It seems that the irony was lost and hence I now refrain from making this type of post.

I use my cars a lot and often attend Lotus events throughout the country, I always like to meet up with people from the forums. Being nasty towards others on these forums is not likely to make me welcome at these meetings.

Enjoy the forums, use them wisely, they are a great resource.

Alan the Spyder Fan

[elanfan1]

Someone missed the point here...........you should NOT be able to put the word which I will disguise here as F then U then C then K in the search engine and get any result as they should have simply been removed long ago.

I was also told by a very nice family guy who was a past member here when I was hoping to buy his Elan that he had specifically asked for the removal of a personal 'attack' post that used the word upfucking and you declined as the post is still again available to be viewed containing this word. This was the old post I could not resist replying to using only words that I checked in the forum search engine before typing in. What was plain to see was the favoritism given between a higher gear who has used bad words in an attack on an individual without the post removed but a newer member gets theirs removed when only using the same approach.

As far as I could gather from the conversation he left the site forum because of it being badly moderated and allowing other higher geared members to get away with actually calling newer members as 'lowly'. Grossly unacceptable behavior despite not bad language.

Moderators IMHO need to be seen to be acting at the very least 'fair' and clean up any posts permanently containing any bad language especially when it is not even disguised.

And........no burst blood vessels here.

Firstly who says you shouldn't be able to swear here -you do obviously -but you are just one opinion (and you yourself liberally used the word to**ers in your deleted post. This site is privately owned and run so you don't get to dictate the rules I'm afraid. If The owner wishes to permit a level swearing that doesn't get the site tagged with a 'Contains Adult Material' this is clearly up to him. A line is generally drawn at personal insults and I can't say I know why the post you refer to wasn't moderated except to say that Jeff was very busy in his life/work. The thread was over 2 years old when you resurrected it and likely forgotten by most.

To say the member concerned left because of that post is somewhat of a leap, He may well have told you that was the reason but the fact is that, that post was 2 years ago and he was still posting a year ago. I think it more likely than not that he left because he'd lost interest and was selling his car.

Out of your first dozen posts you've had one removed and another 2 that are aggressive/antagonistic/opinionated that's a pretty high hit rate. Can I suggest in the friendliest possibly way that you tone it down a bit and drop the 'Mr Angry from Hull'. You are obviously quite a knowledgable chap and doubtless have a welcome contribution to make. You can have a different opinion from everyone else if you want it's not a problem but you don't need to fall out over it. It's just the Internet after all.

[John Larkin]

I think that Jeff manages this site intelligently and fairly; it is well moderated. I don't think that we need a modern Bowdler sanitising members' contributions.

John Larkin

[elanfan1]

Had to google that reference (thick or what? ) but... Exactly.

[jimj]

I love this site and think Jeff does a great job. Over the years there have been some who are not just disrespectful but plain offensive, seeming to take pleasure in being unpleasant. Jeff has weeded them out, thank goodness, one quite recently.
There are others, and I have to say, Wickey, respectfully, offering positive advice, you may be one, who take unnecessary exception to different opinions. Just recently you suggested that a length of timber depressing the clutch pedal would prevent the clutch plate sticking to the flywheel. I`m no mechanic but I don`t believe maintaining pressure in the clutch hydraulics over a long period is a good idea yet I found myself reluctant to respond mindful of your reaction, and that`s not good. You`re, clearly, a knowledgeable bloke, what this site needs, and I`m glad you`re a member.
Jeff`s use of the word "respectful" is all we need. I don`t use or like swear words but I`m not offended by those who do, I just tell `em to **** off.
Jim

[john.p.clegg]

Jeff

You're doing a wonderful job...Keep it up.

I just hope your list of naughty words doesn't put us " on the top shelf"

John

P.S.
Reminds me of when I was in Germany working with the U.S. forces,one wet day in the woods we were about to have something to eat and a female corporal , (who fancied me - but nothing had happened ) , approached and started to eat standing up,I gesticulated to her to come and sit on the log next to me but warned her she'd get a wet fanny...well the Americans were amazed when she threw her food over me.....

?England and America are two countries separated by the same language.?

[Wickey]

Spyder fan you were actually the one that referred to members as 'lowly second gears' IIRC ....how the memory fades.........

That guy left immediately after that post and has not posted just a year ago as I was negotiating to buy his car up to just a couple of months ago, and I was told from a very helpful member on this site who he was, so searched and read all his posts out of interest. He is also a life long member subscribed to Club Lotus but felt he did not need this site for any help and given his wealth (financially) and motor vehicle experience I could understand that. He did mention at some point he had received notification from JC as he had not logged in for 2 years that his account and posts would be removed so was not sure if I would be able to access any of his again.......so I don't want a fight but best if you don't know the facts, don't speculate or make false claims.

He actually warned me off this forum, and said avoid offering advice as there are members who will just jump all over your comment as if they 'know it all' and take exception of new posters experiences. However I decided to make those decisions myself and yes my first post as a newbie sharing my experiences sees the sort of comment. Yet the previous thread on the same subject linked by the same guy which I had not read before I posted actually had same process apart from the 24 hour wait with the clutch pedal down. No newbie there and no statement about burning out motors from the guy like on my quote just telling the OP to go buy a new starter motor if he follows my advice does not come over to me as a simple difference of opinion..

Jimj regards the wood I did make it quite clear the advice was given by one of the leading UK Lotus specialist and it has worked for me for over 30 years on classic Triumphs & Jaguars and I was simply sharing ones experience on the forum.

As for words used on the forum I am certainly not dictating, just challenging the quality of moderation which is now even stated leeway given to higher gear/longer members .............so no further debate needed that has now been clearly clarified.

So no further sharing of experiences of mine from me now, I have better things to do in my retirement

[Spyder fan]

Dear Wickey,
My name is Alan, what's yours?

I can't find the old topic that you refer to, however I do remember that my comments were ironic and referred to Plus 2 describing himself as lowly in the heated exchange with Mr Taylor.

As mentioned, I have found that irony and sarcasm don't work very well on a large scale forum, therefore I generally self moderate and try to be helpful and friendly. I even offered you advice on perhaps not overlooking a car that had a Spyder chassis as this may be to your financial advantage, but you appear to want an original car and I respect that.

I think that the time has come where you need to decide if you fit in with the majority of people who use these forums. As far as I am concerned you are very welcome here, some of my best friendships started with a slanging match

[Wickey]

Dear Wickey,
My name is Alan, what's yours?

I can't find the old topic that you refer to, however I do remember that my comments were ironic and referred to Plus 2 describing himself as lowly in the heated exchange with Mr Taylor.

As mentioned, I have found that irony and sarcasm don't work very well on a large scale forum, therefore I generally self moderate and try to be helpful and friendly. I even offered you advice on perhaps not overlooking a car that had a Spyder chassis as this may be to your financial advantage, but you appear to want an original car and I respect that.

I think that the time has come where you need to decide if you fit in with the majority of people who use these forums. As far as I am concerned you are very welcome here, some of my best friendships started with a slanging match

Dear Wickey,
My name is Alan, what's yours?

I can't find the old topic that you refer to, however I do remember that my comments were ironic and referred to Plus 2 describing himself as lowly in the heated exchange with Mr Taylor.

As mentioned, I have found that irony and sarcasm don't work very well on a large scale forum, therefore I generally self moderate and try to be helpful and friendly. I even offered you advice on perhaps not overlooking a car that had a Spyder chassis as this may be to your financial advantage, but you appear to want an original car and I respect that.

I think that the time has come where you need to decide if you fit in with the majority of people who use these forums. As far as I am concerned you are very welcome here, some of my best friendships started with a slanging match

My name is Stan, thank you for a kinder response Alan, I will try to keep it short as I know you don't like long posts

Just to refresh your memory you personally referred to Plus2 as a lowly second gear not he himself. You can find the post by putting 'upf^cking' in the search engine. (but letter not star)

I frequent a couple of other forums but not car related ones and generally never seen or been a problem for me especially as I see bad language which is very rare or attacks immediately removed but they do have the benefit of more than one moderator (indeed one has 10 moderators) so I do feel somewhat for JC who does it on his own.

Like I have posted somewhere on my few to date on this forum, as a past company director and a senior partner actually, in the past before I retired we also sponsored several forums but unless they were efficiently moderated within 24 hours and we saw items removed and the members told to 'cease and desist' we would advise of withdrawing such support.

I really only joined here as I was looking for a Lotus having had one many many many years ago (yellow S2) that my then fiancee ended up in a fatal accident due to a bodged up front chassis that had been 'scammed' through the DOT now MOT. I swore never to go near one again and the seller (bodger) and I had a serious confrontation that left me being looked after by the state for a few years and well hopefully my dear fiancee able to take over where I left off. It also ended my job in thyristor speed control of AC motors for the shipping industry to replace the DC motors but then did give me time to develop a new career path after previous years of studying to get my qualifications in electrical and mechanical engineering.

So I am now a very mellow guy I did think though of trying to get a discount deal on that car Plus2 had....anyone got Taylor's address? and I am only joking............

[Spyder fan]

Stan,
I'm sorry to read of the tragic accident that occurred many years ago, it obviously affected you deeply and was no doubt life changing. I'm a little perplexed as to why therefore you feel the need to give so much enthusiasm to such a trivial matter on a web forum.

BTW: the topic you refer to is deleted or locked, I can't review it and I don't have an eidetic memory, so if you say that I insulted Plus2 by calling him "Lowly" or whatever for no good reason I would say that's probably true. Gosh am I nasty or what

Perhaps go back and edit your previous post to remove the "up****ing" word or "JC" (sic) will probably moderate it for you

[AHM]

These days I limit myself to starting or joining conversations on the forums where I feel I can make a useful contribution.

No you don't Alan!

I now refrain from making this type of post.

And type with your fingers crossed!