Factors affecting value.....

[fillpoke]

Hi All, I'm hoping that the vast amount of collective knowledge on here may be able to help me out in valuing a car that I may have the chance to buy. The vehicle in question is a red 1968 Series 4 FHC which was restored in 2000 and has seen very little use since. Condition wise I would say that out of 10 it would merit perhaps a 6. There are a couple of factors which may (or may not - I don't know) affect the value. The first is that when the car was restored it was fitted with a Spyder spaceframe chassis. Obviously this isn't original so how would it affect the value? The other is that it has Strombergs rather than Weber/Dellortos, which I would imagine would make it less desirable. Am I correct on that? I'm in the North East of England by the way, so value would be for the uk market. Thanks very much for any help/advice you may be able to give me........

[berni29]

Hi There

The market doesn't really like the Strombergs, but if set up correctly they can me very nice. My experience of the Webers is that they are a total PITA to get to run well, especially in winter. So that aspect would not worry me. Also the Spyder spaceframe chassis are superior to the standard, so don't mark the car down for that.

Hope the car works out for you.

Berni

[TonyA]

I would worry why a car fully restored in 2000 but hardly used since, comes to be in only 6/10 condition..My advice: irrespective of how much poor condition discount the seller accepts, don't touch a neglected, unloved or badly stored Elan unless you have the inclination, time, facilities and skills to fix all the inevitable gremlins yourself...Moreover unless you COULD fix it yourself, or have a classic lotus specialist best freind, you will pay lots of money to poeple whose work you can't judge, on many occasions, wait lots of time and probably break your heart . Buy a loved car in sparing but regular use instead..

Tony

[Andy8421]

The next few years are going to be interesting for the classic car market. With the eventual demise of ICE cars on the horizon, owning a classic is going to be more of a challenge. There will be a tipping point where obtaining the necessary fuels / oils will become a specialist business, with the attendant increases in price and reduction in convenience. No petrol stations nearby, fuel delivered to your home in 25 gallon drums to keep your classic on the road.

For some time we have seen the reduction in the skilled workforce required to restore classics and keep them running as older workers retire. Costs for restoration and maintenance continue to increase - if you can actually find anyone to do the work for you. There is also a tendency to buy cars that you liked when you were young - as we all age, that window moves through time.

I believe the result of this will be a reduction in demand for classic cars, and a commensurate reduction in price. I don't see much future for 70s onward 'nearly classics', I think these will become unsellable. Equally, any car with custom electronics (cars post the 80s) will become scrap when the electronics eventually fail.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the market in high end cars in the UK now CGT has been increased. This end of the market was more about speculation in a CGT free asset than the pleasure of running around in a classic, maybe it will get a temporary boost thanks to the current government's policies.

I do think there is still a niche for real collectors cars pre-electronics, low volume cars that were special in some way. Competition cars, cars with particular provenance or significance. I do put our Elans in that camp, but as we have recently seen, they aren't immune from a softening of the market.

Anyway, back to the OP. If you want a car to drive, and aren't buying it as a speculative play, then its much more important to find a good, honest car that is in decent mechanical and cosmetic order. Spyder frames are considered to be better (stiffer, more rust resistant) than the original design, and many reports I have read describe the Stromberg engined cars as a smoother and nicer drive than Webers or Dellortos.

However, originality trades at a premium, and is likely to become more important as time goes on. Stromberg engined cars tend to be discounted as Webers / Dellortos have a 'sportier' reputation, and heck, this is supposed to be a sports car.

You pays your money.....

[ericbushby]

Hi There.
The answer is obvious to me.
If you want the car and are just asking for help on the valuation then you have had some and may get more soon.
if you have doubts about the modifications or condition or whether it is a good idea then do not buy it.
There will be another along soon. I looked at eight cars before I bought mine. It may involve travelling long distances, but you will find what you want.
Best of luck
Eric in Burnley
1967 S3SE DHC

[elans3]

Unlike berni29, I am a Weber / Dellorto fan. Don't like Strombergs . Webers, in fact, as long as they are well maintained, obviously rebuilt at least once in their lifetime are far more reliable than people think.
On my last S3 S/E, I rebuilt the carbs when I got the car. Spent a few hours cleaning and re-gasketting them, re-balanced them when they were back on the car, fitted new, strong spring to the adjustment screws, then did 4500 miles over two years without touching them, and they were still running perfectly when I sold the car.
The key is really knowing how to set them up, and new springs so that the adjustment doesn't move once set.
I run a Mitsuba electric fuel pump, no choke connected, a Aldon Ignitor electronic ignition , It takes 4 pumps of the throttle to start instantly from cold in the summer, 5 in the winter. No churning over whatsoever.

I did exactly the same with my Alfa Twincam's 40 DCOE's. It's now done 7500 miles over seven years, and I haven't had to touch the carbs.
Personally I wouldn't buy a Stromberg - headed car, but that's just me.
I would echo other's thoughts above though, like buy the best you can, particularly if you're not experienced in Loti.

[JonB]

I think there’s a lot of anti Stromberg bias in the Elan world. I had Dellortos on my Plus 2 and they liked to go out of balance with regularity. Fuel economy was dreadful and they suffer from evaporation leading to excessive cranking at cold start.

My S4 has Strombergs. It is under restoration at the moment but I am pretty sure I will be happy with it once it hits the road. If not, there are other options available such as modern Mikuni carburettors. My point is, keep an open mind. And buy with eyes open. As the engineers say, you get what you inspect, not what you expect. In other words, go look at it. It’ll be obvious enough if it’s a dog.

You may be well advised to wait. Achieved values (especially at auction) seem to be going down at the moment, quite alarmingly. Asking prices are still high but how many of them are actually selling? I think it’s a buyer’s market, at least for now. See recent discussion : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=54966

Oh, and Eric’s advice is golden. Don’t be afraid to walk away. As he says another will be along soon enough.

[EPC 394J]

fillpoke

There are frequent, heated discussions on this forum regarding spaceframe chassis. Just search here for “Spyder chassis DVLA”. You will read both sides of the argument. I would say two things. Firstly, be very certain the VIN/Chassis/Frame No on the V5 matches the data plate in the engine bay, and does not reflect anything connected to the spaceframe chassis! Secondly, personally I would definitely use the presence of a Spyder chassis as a reason to negotiate the price. The seller may well baulk at this suggestion, but there are a few people who have most definitely had headaches with this arrangement. Just search the forum.

[wdb]

In the Porsche community I frequently hear "you're buying the owner as much as the car". I have to agree with the prior comment wondering how a 2006 restoration became a 6/10. Even a restored car, if neglected and/or stored in less than wonderful conditions, can revert rather quickly to being a 50 year old relic. Spend some time making that determination, if you can.

I'm actually an SU guy deep down there somewhere and resented the Strombergs when they replaced my beloved carbs on US cars. But they did so because they were better at metering fuel in ways in which emissions systems approved. So they're okay, dagnabit.

That's as much help as I can give. Still on the learning curve.

[elans3]

I think there’s a lot of anti Stromberg bias in the Elan world. I had Dellortos on my Plus 2 and they liked to go out of balance with regularity. Fuel economy was dreadful and they suffer from evaporation leading to excessive cranking at cold start.

It's not just in the Lotus Elan world.
With Strombergs fitted to many, many cars, mainly sports saloons over the 60's and seventies, (and I've owned quite a few of them), look at Vauxhall 2300 Firenza's & Magnums, (I changed the Strom's to 2" SU's in my road rally cars), Imp sports (changed to a single downdraught Weber ), Avenger GT (changed to twin 40 Webers or Dellorto's), the Rootes 1725cc engines (Alpines, Hunter GT's etc), and Triumph TR6's (US spec usually changed to SU's).
In all those marque forums you'll find a bias towards changing out the Strombergs to something different, because of the difficulty in maintaining them, and their performance after a time.
Back in the day, I could never rebuild them to perform as they did when new, and that's probably why I erred towards the Weber, SU & Dellorto conversions, finding them much easier to set up once rebuilt correctly.
Each to his own, I guess.

[JonB]

Well, fair enough. I’ll wait until I have some experience with them before commenting further, but as I said, there are other options in a Stromberg Elan. Not SUs- I think they won’t fit under the bonnet..

Cheers
JonB