Engine Number Gap

[trw99]

I was replying to the thread lotus-elan-f19/purchased-elan-coupe-t30597.html and was prompted to do some further investigation into engine numbers.

It would appear that the new letter designation for engine types according to market, was introduced on Federal Elans during 1968 at engine no. G16000. However, there were still plenty of subsequent engine numbers fitted that were designated LP.

Interestingly, the last LP numbered engine in my records fitted to an Elan is LP13213. It is apparent that there were very few 13000 series engines fitted to Elans and none in the 14000 or 15000 range. Why?

I turned to Miles Wilkins' book on the twin cam and, after a swift scan, could find no reference to this gap in engine numbers. Neither could I find any 14k or 15k series engine numbers in any of my +2 records. Hopefully Mark can have a look at the LoCort records to see if he comes across any. At this time the Europa was of course, fitted with the Renault engine.

1968 was the year that many new safety features had to be incorporated into cars, not just to satisfy the stringent lobbyist Ralph Nader in North America, but also the emerging bureaucrats in Europe. It had seen the SS Elan introduced as a stop gap Elan prior to the launch that same year of the S4, which incorporated all the necessary new features car producers were obliged to fit. 1968 was also the year in which Lotus Cars listed on the London stock exchange. There was clearly a great deal going on at Hethel during the year. Did Lotus decide to start engine numbers afresh? Did the 16000 series reflect the changed nature of the Federal twin cam, with it's Stromberg carbs and cross over pipes?

In 1968 my records show Elans fitted with engine nos in the 8k, 9k, 10k, 11k, 12k, 13k, 16k & 17k series. Currently I need to do additional research and I shall have a chat with Andy Graham. Any one have any verifiable information to add to the mix?

Tim

[KevJ+2]

Hi Tim,
I have engine number H17533B. I suppose this runs after the G numbers you mention but I am interested to know what the B is for? Head number is LP1915
My engine is archived as leaving Hethel on 27th November 1968
Regards,
Kev.

[Elanintheforest]

I think that the non-Elan Twincam cars will fill the gaps quite comfortably!

These are the numbers made of 'the others', and the years made.

Mk 1 Lotus Cortina (1963 to 1966) - 3300
Mk 2 Lotus Cortina (1967 to 1970) - 4100
Escort Twincam (UK) (1968 to 1970) - 900
Escort Twincam (AUS) (1970 to 1972) - 800
Europa Twincam (1971 to 1974) - 4500

Total 13600....plus Elans, Plus 2s and specials / spares

Mark

[trw99]

Thanks Mark. But do some of those engines have serial numbers in the 14 & 15 series?

Tim

[Elanintheforest]

I have seen a few 14000 and 15000 numbers on Mk 2 Lotus Cortina engines. The trouble is there are no Ford records in existence that show the engine number. The Lotus Cortina and Twincam were different to all other Fords in that their engine numbers and chassis numbers didn't match...the twincam 'sequence' number was kept on the block.

So the only ones I've seen are on cars, or in the register, which is unreliable as it's been populated by owner's entries rather than any factory record. It's also fairly unusual for a Cortina or Escort to have it's original engine, as many of the cars were used in some sort of motorsport at some time in their usually short life.

But given that 5000 twincam engines went into Cortinas and Escorts between March '67 and the end on '70, many if not all of the 14000 and 15000 were probably used up there. If not, then where else could they have been used??!

Mark

[trw99]

I've been doing some further research into this. If you look at the range of dates, engine numbers and VINs, it is clear that a) there was no logic to which engine number was fitted to which Elan, b) engine numbers were fitted in a random way for several months from mid 1968 to mid 1969, c) no engine numbers in the 14k or 15k series were fitted to Elans.

Eng Nos 12000-12948 fitted between May & Nov 68 to VINs 7746 to 8352
Eng Nos 13017-13213 fitted between Feb & Nov 68 to VINs 8101 to 8346
Eng Nos 16000-16988 fitted between May 68 & Mar 69 to VINs 7691 to 8557
Eng Nos 17307-17948 fitted between Jun 68 & Apr 69 to VINs 8100 to 8792

Notwithstanding Mark's supposition that the 14k and 15k series engines went into LoCorts, I am still perplexed as to how and why 2000 twin cam engine numbers are essentially unaccounted for at a time that engines with serial numbers in the 12k, 13k, 16k & 17k series were all being fitted concurrently.

Were 2000 odd LoCorts made between May 68 and Apr 69?

Was there an engine number 're-distribution' at the factory at this time? If so, why, I wonder?

Tim

[Elanintheforest]

Tim, I think that there were some 1500 Twincam Cortinas and Escorts built in this period. There would also have been a large demand for spare engines as the Escort Twincam was leading the different international rally and race events, and the car was very popular in the club rallying and racing as well. That lot could well account for another 100 engines or so.

The other thought is the David (Lotus) and Goliath (Ford) relationship, and the background that David was in constant threat of going broke in those days. If I were in Ford, depending on a tiny supplier in a fairly precarious financial position, I would place a large forward order for the engines needed to ensure that my leading sporty cars could be completed. This was in the days long before 'just-in'time' manufacturing methods were employed by car manufacturers (which provides virtually no stock) and having some 6 months of safety stock would have probably been a prudent investment, whilst helping the Lotus cashflow.

The last bit is just a theory of course, but neatly accounts for the other 400 - 500 engines! And now it's on the internet, it must be true.

Mark

[HampshireMush]

Very interesting to read about this but to add to the confusion I have 45-8707 registered in Feb 1969 with engine number L181858 which does not seem to tie up with the data in Tim's last note.

I thought that this was the original engine as it is that number on the VIN plate but maybe someone has changed the engine and remade the VIN plate?

John

[Elanintheforest]

Take the 8 off the end of your number John and that is the original engine ....18185. The 16s, 17s and 18s are really mixed up in 1969!

Mark

[HampshireMush]

Thanks Mark

I'm glad that ones sorted as I was told that it was the original engine!

I will have to recheck the number on the block but I am sure that it has the extra 8 on the end.

John

[trw99]

Thanks Mark, I'll accept that as a more than adequate answer to this conundrum - until and unless some new info comes along!

To avoid confusion, I should add that in the figures I give above, the VINs and engine nos are not exclusive. In other words, it cannot be read that all VINs in, for example, the 8101 to 8346 range only had 13k series engine nos.

John, that 8 is in all probability a B.

Tim

[HampshireMush]

Now I am confused!!

I have checked the block and the last digit is definitely an 8 not a B - see attached.

Also the VIN plate and the log book have the number as L181858.

Thanks

John

[Elanintheforest]

The bloke probably just couldn't find the 'B' when he was stamping the block. There were about 32,000 twincam engines made between 1963 and 1974, so your engine really being number 181,858th out of the 32,000 seems a little unlikely.

With Lotus, always think cock-up rather than conspiracy!

Mark

[LotusArchives]

I've been doing some further research into this. If you look at the range of dates, engine numbers and VINs, it is clear that a) there was no logic to which engine number was fitted to which Elan, b) engine numbers were fitted in a random way for several months from mid 1968 to mid 1969, c) no engine numbers in the 14k or 15k series were fitted to Elans.

Eng Nos 12000-12948 fitted between May & Nov 68 to VINs 7746 to 8352
Eng Nos 13017-13213 fitted between Feb & Nov 68 to VINs 8101 to 8346
Eng Nos 16000-16988 fitted between May 68 & Mar 69 to VINs 7691 to 8557
Eng Nos 17307-17948 fitted between Jun 68 & Apr 69 to VINs 8100 to 8792

Notwithstanding Mark's supposition that the 14k and 15k series engines went into LoCorts, I am still perplexed as to how and why 2000 twin cam engine numbers are essentially unaccounted for at a time that engines with serial numbers in the 12k, 13k, 16k & 17k series were all being fitted concurrently.

Were 2000 odd LoCorts made between May 68 and Apr 69?

Was there an engine number 're-distribution' at the factory at this time? If so, why, I wonder?

Tim

Tim,

Bear in mind that many Elans were sold in component form, this means engines were produced and stock piled with the same happening to bodies. This is why there is no real sequence to engine numbers and chassis numbers, I would suspect which ever engine and body that met the required specification that was easiest to obtain was used.

Someone may have made a decission that the new type engine numbers, prefixed with a single letter to identify the model and market, would start at 16000 (if that was the case, I have not researched it) and the old style LP numbers left to continue as required, for Ford perhaps as already suggested?

[elansprint71]

Were the block numbers stamped at Ford, or Lotus?