Heeeeeeeeeeelp!! Non-runner up against the clock!

[Apollo13]

Hi all,

First post - having spent a couple of hours reading through all the similar issues others have suffered!

I have until Friday to get a Feb 1971 Elan S4/Sprint I'm looking after re-tested at the MOT station in order to avoid a re-test fee.
The car failed on the brakes - these are now sorted. My major headache is an electrical problem, preventing me getting back for the re-test. Being an engineer, mechanical issues are a hobby of sorts (hence being nominated as custodian of the car), but I have a pathological hatred of electrical issues!!

History:
The car's had very little use in the last 12-24 months.

The car started (with a little Easy Start) and drove to the MOT garage fine. It's 5 miles. Full throttle leads to misfiring/poor running, but the car is probably out of tune. Carbs are Dellortos.

At the garage, the car started mis-behaving (still hot, obviously) when trying to move from the brake check rollers to the inspection ramp. It wouldn't start cleanly and required a lot of revs to pull away.

On the way home, it slowly got worse. It would tolerate less and less throttle to run cleanly. Eventually it died. Suspecting fuel (gauge in-op), I scrounged a lift and purchased 5 litres. By the time I was back it had cooled and fired up. I only got a mile before it stopped again and this time for good. It was towed home.

Been working on it today. Fuel seems to be getting through - wet plugs, general aroma etc. Ignition side suspected - symptoms as follows:

1. No spark at plug gap. Have checked/cleaned cap and rotor and shortened/re-pierced HT leads at cap end.
2. Sparks seen at points when manually opened with key in "run" position.
3. Slightly intermittent sparking at points when turning over with cap off.
4. Car has Lucas Sport (Gold) coil. No idea if it's ok. 10.5V or so being seen across the coil terminals. Coil seems to be switching when cranking, but distinct lack of high tension at plug gap.
5. Condenser swapped for another off a Land Rover Series III. Second hand but known to be ok when removed. No change - still no spark on any plug on any lead.

There's an anti-theft switch in the glove box. Could be this, but doesn't explain the sparks at the points unless the switch just isolates the high tension? The wiring, in general, is a bit of a jungle.

Have until Friday (2 week MOT re-test deadline - imagine they won't issue a certificate to a non-running car that's towed there!!). Have a mate to help, but both restricted to evenings only now. Both electrically ignorant, so up against it a bit!! Car and I are based in Adderbury, Oxfordshire. All offers of help gratefully received! What's on my shopping list Monday lunchtime then?!!

Best regards,
George

[john.p.clegg]

I'd start with a new set of NGK BP6ES plugs..

John

[gordonlund]

Laying up an Elan up for 2 years is always going to give problems. Modern fuels are the main suspect. They evapourate the high fractions, the fuel constituents that go bang to a spark. Drain all the old old fuel and refill with high octane (sic 98 octane fuel - whatever happened to 102 octane!!!)
Elan Sprints on 10.3:1 compression will not run on used chip fat.

I once took some old fuel out of my plus 2 after it had been stood for 18 months during a major refit and threw a lighted match at it. It put the match out!!
New fuel & it started first time.

If not that try a new coil.

Gordon

[elansprint71]

Carbs full of crap from old fuel. Clean the gauze filters. Check the obvious before spending money.

[gordonlund]

Agree

Gordon

[Frank Howard]

George,

Here's a couple of quick and easy suggestions for you. I realize you are getting spark with the key in the on position, but I never trusted the anti-theft switch. I removed mine years ago. Flip the switch on and off 20 times. If there is corrosion, this should take care of it, at least for now. Be sure you leave it in the on position (I think it's up). Try starting the car.

If that doesn't work, remove one plug and clamp it to ground with the high tension lead connected. Try starting the car. You should get a blue spark at the plug. If you do, then replace the plug and spray some Ether (starting fluid) into the carbs and try again. If the car starts and dies, try continuing with the Ether to keep it running. If this is what happens, then at least you know you have a fuel problem.

Let us all know how things turn out.

[jkatthehelm]

Sounds like the condenser to me. I know you replaced it, but I've had new ones which didn't work. Suggest you fit another before pulling everything else apart.
JK

[memini55]

Just read thru the post and would agree with most but might add a few more thoughts.
On the spark side hook a test light 12v to the low voltage side of the coil which connects to the distributor and turn on key and spin the motor over while watching light. It should pulse with points open and close. If that is not good look at points and condensor. Motor will also spin easier with plugs out during test. If you test and have good flash of light but then nothing at plugs, tested as Frank said then look at coil or cracked cap or rotor.
Now if this is all good then move over to fuel as old fuel will cause all sorts of trouble. Be very careful with starting fluid or either, use in small amounts and careful squirts will keep it running but don't do for long period of time. I also use a small squirt can with fresh gas but either should provide a running condition for a short interval of time and once this happens start cleaning out your fuel system and get fresh gas in place.
Good luck
Mark

[Apollo13]

Hi all,

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Nice to have found a helpful bunch of enthusiasts.

Just to confirm, my problem is plugs refusing to spark.

Quick update -
Firstly changed points, condenser and coil for new Lucas items last night. New coil is Lucas Sport, non-ballasted, as per old one.

Earthed cyl head with jump leads to make sure of good earth.

Checked plugs by connecting directly to known good coil lead plugged into the new coil - sparking fine. Have some NGK 'R' BPR7ES plugs at home (same as BP7ES? - these, rather than BP6ES, are the recommended ones at the local spares shop). Ones in the car at present are Bosch something or other. Have checked gaps.

Next we checked the centre electrode of the dizzy cap - the painful way! Spark seems more inclined to travel up through insulated pliers than to jump the gap from rotor tip to dizzy electrode! Does this indicate high resistance in cap/rotor? Rotor tip and dizzy terminals all cleaned up nicely beforehand.

So, spark is entering cap but not leaving. Have cap on order, along with rotor. Had already sourced and made up new leads (stranded core) and fitted to old cap, but still no spark.

Cap has to be old screw terminal type due to clearance issues to inlet manifold. Rotor looks identical to 850cc Mini type. The only other components remaining to be changed are the spark plug caps.

Can't understand sudden catastrophic failure of dizzy cap or rotor (remember the car was running, then died, then restarted a couple of times and now won't spark at all). The rotor, after all, is just a piece of brass!! Can't see any arcing around the outside of the cap when cranking (there are 2 of us working on the car).

Any further suggestions?

Cheers,
George

[andyelan]

Hi George

I had a somewhat similar problem to this with my Plus 2 and it turned out to be fouled spark plugs. What caught me out though was the fact that it was running fine one day then the next, when I tried to start it, it was absolutly dead. No attempting to start on 2 or 3 cylinders, no running but misfiring, absolutly nothing. New spark plugs (BP7ES) and everything was fine again.

Whilst this is probebly not the problem in your case, what I found amazing was just how suddely and without warning these sort of problems can came about.

Regards
Andy

[SADLOTUS]

Another suggestion, if the spark's at the rotor arm but doesn't leave the cap: check the height of the (new) rotor arm in relation to the terminals inside the (old) cap. Sometimes, the two don't line up.

Good luck.

[stuartgb100]

George,

I've had similar symptoms/problems over the last year, and each time it's turned out to be condensor/ rotor, or both.

There's talk of a bad batch of imports.

When I got it running fine last time, I went back to the same place and bought a spare set.

The trouble is they work fine for a while, then start to break down.

Try different suppliers.

Regards,
Stuart.

[powellsmail]

Try swapping the rotor arm. I had similar symptoms over nearly a year and eventually worked out the the rotor arm had gone dead. It is thought that where-ever they are made now the brass rivet which holds the brass strip on is too long and eventually allows the spark to ground through the centre of the rotor arm to the dizzy shaft. Initially is fine when cold but fails when it heats up, - then fixes itself when it has cooled down again. Eventually will permanantly fail. A neighbour who is into classic rallying has seen a few now and there was a comment in this months classic and sports car on this also.

Once you suspect this is the problem it it is easy to test - just take the top off the dizzy and hold the ht lead from the coil to the centre of the rotor arm, and crank. Of course nothing should happen but if you get a spark then you have an earth leak.

Regards

Mark
s4 se dhc

[Apollo13]

We have ignition! Just seen the new posts this morning and you are bang on - we swapped out the rotor arm and cap last night and had a spark at the plug for the first time in 2 weeks. The cap we had was off a land rover S1 and not quote the right fit, so left the rotor arm on and put the Lotus' cap back on and still had a spark. So the rotor was obviously earthing out. Fitted the leads back on the plugs and away she went!

So MOT re-test here I come. The brakes felt good.

Longer term job list is as follows:

Fuel gauge in-op (sender? wiring?)
Washer jets in-op (pump? wiring?)
Fan switch in radiator front lh is held in by a ty-rap! Not sealing very well, as you would expect!
Rear suspension very soft and under damped - suggestions as to replacements?
Diff oil seals weeping
Poss Rotoflexes - haven't had a good look underneath yet.

Cheers for all the help and encouragement so far.

George

[rocket]

Not wishing to be gloomy but i believe washer jets need to work for MOT?