FHC vs DHC/Roadster Values

[steveww]

In standard form the Elan is pretty quick even by modern standards, certainly competitive with most typical hot hatches. I am in favour of modifying classic cars to improve reliability and tweak performance. My S4 has some mild engine work, suspension and brake upgrades, modern electric fan with alloy radiator etc. My aim with these modification was not to make it the fastest thing out there, you will need to go some to beat a Caterham CSR260 I did not do it to increase the value, owning a classic car is never an investment.

For me the joy of the Elan is the driving. You can have a lot of fun both on the road and the track. The handling is so sweet and the performance sufficient. It is a car you have to drive (like all classics) as there are not any computers to help you out when you make a mistake. I used to have a Porsche 964RS (911) which was also tweaked a bit It was blisteringly fast but ultimately not so much fun. It was so capable of high speeds, big cornering forces and huge stops that it did not feel quick until 130mph and cornering with the inside front wheel in the air. The Elan on the other hand is still a blast to drive; weaving down a back lane at 60mph. I have had a string of various sports cars over the years, until the Elan the Porsche was the longest serving at 3 years, the Elan has been with me 4 years now and I do not want to sell. It is too much fun and what would I replace it with? Mind you I do have space for a CSR260 for track days but I think my wife would notice

[Ross Robbins]

Hey guys, I appreciate Gary Anderson attempting to get the discussion back on values with his challenge to pony up some numbers, so here is my two cents:

Series 1 and 2 Roadsters $25,000 for condition 1, $20,000 condition 2, $13,000 condition 3, $8,000 condition 4 and $2,500 condition 5

S 3 & S4 DHC $1-2,000 higher than above

S 3 Coupe $18,000 @1, $14,000@2, $8,000@3, $4,000 @4 and $2,000 @5

Real Sprints add another $2,000 to S3 S4 prices.

I am basing this on some sales I am aware of like Herzog's perfect car and the S2 I bought in condition 3 for $12,500 and put an immediate $1,500 into.

If I had a condition 4 or 5 car I would probably part it out as parts values exceed car values at that point. I have paid stupid amounts to ridgliven for the exact piece I needed. Haven't you?

Runs and ducks for cover to avoid the ensuing firestorm.

[Elanintheforest]

I think you can add 50% for prices in the UK, maybe a little more, probably mainly to do with current exchange rate. Basket case (condition 4 / 5) probably 100% more. Any pre 1966 Elan has a value of $5000 just for the VIN plate and title...the racer boys have pushed the prices up a lot.
Mark

[garyeanderson]

Hi Ross

That?s a fair list and as others have said, it?s still up to folks of what their preference is. Some people like me like the lightweight and simple Early Elans, others got to have a Sprint being the "pinnacle" of Elan production. If you have forever you may get your price, as inflation will make an Elan attractive if you wait long enough. Sometimes you get a lot value for your money being in the right place with cash in hand, the market is funny and time of year makes a difference in most places that have Winter. ridgeliven makes some money buying Elans that I, in the past would fix but I think that has changed in my mind. I have an early S2 that is painted and ready to go together and all the parts bought including a new chassis. I am hesitant to put any more effort to get my $.70 to $1.00 an hour for my time and still have someone think I screwed them. All parts are new or rebuilt and have been paid for. Seeing what ridgeliven is doing and apparently making money doing so I wonder if the Elan hasn't out lived its 4 decade reign as the ultimate fun car (aka - the most fun you can have with your pants on). One of my beater Elans is going to give its engine an gearbox to my 66 Lotus Cortina. That?s just the opposite of what happened 30 to 35 years ago, how times change. I guess I will go and look at the Elan in the field but my offer will be a lot less than even two years ago and I wasn?t offering much then either.

Gary

P.S. what did you get for the Elan racecar or is that a secret?

[1964 S1]

Hello Gary, you wrote,
"... I wonder if the Elan hasn't out lived its 4 decade reign as the ultimate fun car (aka - the most fun you can have with your pants on). One of my beater Elans is going to give its engine an gearbox to my 66 Lotus Cortina. That?s just the opposite of what happened 30 to 35 years ago, how times change."

If we count the '60's as one of its decades and our current 2007+ decade it's racked up 5 decades! I predict in another 5 decades someone will haul your engine and gearbox out of the (roomier, wink wink,) rusted Cortina Sedan and stick it in a beater Elan because of that pants thing.

I would also like to thank and sincerely congratulate Ross for authoring one of the longest discussions we've ever had on a subject fully covered years ago.

Eric

[garyeanderson]

Hi Eric
No wink wink here, Lotus Cortina's Mk1's are now bringing some real money. They are inline with any of the Elans and prices will probably rise faster then the Elan for the reason you state about rust. I would like to enjoy the music of the twin cam in the comfort of a sedan and be able surprise a few econo-box type drivers. These are rare birds, 186 Lotus Cortinas brought into the U.S. (offically) over a 2 year period (1965 and 1966) out of approximately 650 total LHD units. Totals for both LHD and RHD are jsut over 3000. They didn't sell well at all here and only now are Appreciating after the rest of the world is buying our limited stocks of iron oxide free LoCorts. Take a look at Bob Woolners web site www.lotus-cortina.com for some info on the subject.
You are right about the 5 decade thing, I guess I have been involved with them for over 3 of them (1975, so I'm a rooky) but I took a decade off in the middle to build a house and dry out. hard to believe that 2 of my Elan's are nearly 43 years old now.

Gary

[1964 S1]

...the wink wink was an obsure reference to the wink wink nudge nudge Monty Python bit about a guy's wife. The roomy back seat of a Cortina and your pants comment made my lurid mind run rampant.

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

"So you're a man of the World then?"

"Say no more!!!!!!"
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" So what's i like then? (in the back of a Cortina)

[Ross Robbins]

Gary,

Deal isn't done yet...you know car picked up and check cleared but I sold it less trailer and took an S3 FHC in part exchange (Hence the original question) so I will still have nine Lotuses. So much for the reducing the inventory theory. Drop me a note and I'll 'fess up. [email protected] The car is still on racecars.com if you want the skinny. I'll be canceling it when we conclude the deal tomorrow I hope.

Thanks again for all the wisdom and openness on this forum.

[garyeanderson]

"Friday A friend of mine from High school saw me driving the other way and pulled me over, he said he had been looking for me for a while, he said I got a map for you and theres an Elan just like yours sitting outside there... Oh know not another one. I guess I'll just have to stack them up a little higher."

This is a reply to the quote above from last week.

Wednesday I went to look at the Elan that my friend told me of. There was no one home so My friend Bill and I walked over for a look, Sad...
No Windscreen and a rear coil sring sticking up through the fiberglass. Blue poly tarp had blown off and had rotted away some time ago. Most of the interior missing but there was a pile of other stuff in there. There was the old top sitting in the cabin space and both headlamp buckets and some other parts from the Elan. I couldn't see the steel lattice work that surrounds the door, I guess I already knew what to expect so I didn't bother to really look. Moved on and Popped the bonnet (no latches) and the engine was still there but otherwise pretty well stripped out. It had a weber head but the carbs were off. The Elan looked pretty low and my Elan isn't to tall. All 4 tires flat and frame was sitting on the ground. I reached in from the front wheel arch and verified that the frame had been plated in the front turrets some time in the past and we both looked at each other and agreed "parts, worth about a grand". I got the owners name and looked up the phone number and gave a call the next morning, no one home so I left a message and got a call back at Noon. The owner said it was running 5 years ago and the "cover blew off a year ago..." I kind of wanted it so I told him $1000 to $1500 from what I saw, "On no. no. no its worth alot more" he said. I have the rest of the car inside.
Yesterday Bill went back to Look at the rest of the "inside parts", well they were inside sitting under window with some broken panes, either drying out or getting acclimated to all the rain we have had in the last month ready to go back into car for the soon to be new ebay owner. This car is a number 6 or 7, the owner said I/we were being insulting with the offer, he would rather it sit until it has no value at all.
The owner is looking for $3k and thats just a gamble, it may be worth it but just as likely not. I really don't want to pay that much to go through the boxes of parts stored indoors and toss half of every thing I look at in the trash and then have to pay to get rid if it.
I guess I would rather buy a crashed Elan than something with this many unknowns, at least with the crashed Elan you know why the owner stopped driving it.

Gary E. Anderson

[rgh0]

Hi Gary

When you get to this point in an Elans life your buying a very basic body shell (needs a lot of work and may be only good for a few repair sections for other cars) and a few castings ( the head, block, rear hubs, gearbox housing, diff housing, front timing chain cover, carbs etc). Its a long way from that to a working car but individually those few bits in Australia at least would add up to a few thousand A$.

In Australia people want and get A$15000 ( US$12000) for cars like this !!! Just because it very expensive to get the big and or heavy bits from the UK.

cheers
Rohan

[garyeanderson]

Hi Rohan

I do agree that the bulk of the parts are worth more and I told the owner that he would get more in parts alone. This does involve the work of disassembly, finding people that will buy them, storing what doesn't sell right off, shipping and getting paid. Most times when you part a car out you end up with a larger pile of parts than you started with even after you have gotten "more money" for what you are able to sell. My offer at this price was to re-assemble the car and not to make a quick buck parting it out and trashing the rest. Ridgeliven buys cars and must be making some money on his efforts and others do I am sure, but it takes time and effort on the part of the person that is selling. I offered a modest (insulting maybe?) sum for the shell I saw and an easy way to put some money in his pocket. Guessing the condition of any of the (useful/usable?) parts is a gamble. I do not need the Elan or the parts that I saw. I never saw the parts that were stored in the shed and can only say that my friend Bill (who did see them) wasn't impressed.
I guess it comes down to this, if you pay more than $2k you will be upsidedown on the finished Elan shortly. I think it is at the point now where if you were given an Elan that needs as much as some of the cars I have bought in the past (and the Elan I looked at last Wednesday) you will still put in more than you will ever get out (monitarilly) and I am not talking about any labor (mine or the people that have helped me).
I don't want to sound like these cars are worthless because I own a bunch of them, but I guess I am starting to get realistic on what I can expect on some of my investments.

[Elanintheforest]

I'm most impressed that there is a bicycle to travel up and down the shop floor on!
Mark

[garyeanderson]

Hi Mark
The Motobecane came from the town landfill. The metal pile that was located directly behind the shop and I had almost as many bicycles stored outside as Elans inside. My friend and I would go over shopping at the end of the day, great prices and no sales tax either. I used it to ride down to the autoparts store when I couldn't drive a car do to a small parking area used as outdoor storage for the 8 businesses in the complex. I was at the end and I sometimes had to leave and I don't like to walk all that much.

Gary

[rgh0]

Hi Gary

As a rebuilder of abused Lotus your offer was of course reasonable. I will never sell my Lotus as I would never get back the time and money spent on them, but I built them to drive not as an investment so I'm happy every day I am behind the wheel on the road or the track.

Its a pity that lots of cars just get worse and worse because sellers have an unrealistic perception of the value and they refuse to sell and all the while the car gets more run down and worth even less until the only option is to part out the few remaining bits of any value and another car is lost.

cheers
Rohan

PS Wish I had your space to work on my cars.