FHC vs DHC/Roadster Values

[msd1107]

1964 S1 makes the interesting point that "An original anything is worth more than a modified anything." This may be true with a race car (although there is hardly an original race car). And it may be true with limited production cars like DB-4 GT, 250GTO, C and D Types etc. And maybe even something like a Marcos or other Costin designed car.

But if the production figures over the years reach into 6 and 7 figures, then a car is a car is a car. There may have been a special configuration produced in low volume that has now appreciated and its value is maximized if kept original.

Otherwise, it seems that updating cars is the accepted thing. Tires, wheels, suspension, brakes, engine mods or swaps, transmission, rear end, heating, cooling, air conditioning, radio, body panels, etc give the owner the pride of a distinctive 40 year old car with modern day performance attributes.

Our Elan falls in the middle. The car was a production car with compromises to meet a cost target. The performance at the time, 0-60 of 8 sec, 60-0 in 150 ft, .73 g cornering, and 115 top speed was very good, especially considering the purchase price.

But that performance is bested by a goodly number of sedans now, and a revised performance of 0-60 <6 sec, 60-0 <120>.9 g cornering, and top speed >140 is a 21st century target.

A suitably modified Elan can meet those performance targets. I think Gary has some that roughly meet that criteria, and there are many others that qualify.

Now, doing so is not cheap. But if you need to rebuild your car, cranking 20K or so into the project gets you a nice performance vehicle. Certainly, if it was worth 15K (for example) to start, you are not going to get 35K afterward. But in 20 years, that stock Elan may be 40K, and a dog, while your modified wheels will easily get 50K if you have everything documented. If a person gets a stock Elan then for 40K, they will have to put in another 40K to get to where you are for 50K. But why would you sell?

When you modify, keep receipts. Get a dyno run to document the power. Get a GPS based accelerometer and dial in the car and document its acceleration, braking, cornering and maybe top speed for use as marketing material if you sell the car. Everything is computer based now, print out all the data and keep it on hand.

Now, I suspect that it takes some engineering knowledge and expertise to accomplish this. Those who post to the site and have modified cars are obviously skillful and knowledgeable. But each metropolitan center seems to have someone with Elan (or Lotus, or English car) skills, and if their palm is greased, you can get quite a satisfactory performance Elan out the back end. Or ship the car to a specialist to do the job.

But if you want the special feeling that goes with having a completely production correct car, than that is the correct course for you. The Elan community is large enough for both points of view, as well as everything inbetween.

David
1968 36/7988

[chicagojeff]

I don't buy my cars as investments, but the Elan does have 3 great factors:
1. important historically to racing and car design.
2. rare
3. tremendous to drive (when working)

these eventually add up to good investment potential.

[mopho]

Reality is the car is only worth as much as the person who wants it is willing to pay

[mopho]

....Otherwise, it seems that updating cars is the accepted thing. Tires, wheels, suspension, brakes, engine mods or swaps, transmission, rear end, heating, cooling, air conditioning, radio, body panels, etc give the owner the pride of a distinctive 40 year old car with modern day performance attributes.

Our Elan falls in the middle. The car was a production car with compromises to meet a cost target. The performance at the time, 0-60 of 8 sec, 60-0 in 150 ft, .73 g cornering, and 115 top speed was very good, especially considering the purchase price.....

......Now, doing so is not cheap. But if you need to rebuild your car, cranking 20K or so into the project gets you a nice performance vehicle. Certainly, if it was worth 15K (for example) to start, you are not going to get 35K afterward. But in 20 years, that stock Elan may be 40K, and a dog, while your modified wheels will easily get 50K if you have everything documented. If a person gets a stock Elan then for 40K, they will have to put in another 40K to get to where you are for 50K. But why would you sell?

When you modify, keep receipts. Get a dyno run to document the power. Get a GPS based accelerometer and dial in the car and document its acceleration, braking, cornering and maybe top speed for use as marketing material if you sell the car. Everything is computer based now, print out all the data and keep it on hand.

Now, I suspect that it takes some engineering knowledge and expertise to accomplish this. Those who post to the site and have modified cars are obviously skillful and knowledgeable. But each metropolitan center seems to have someone with Elan (or Lotus, or English car) skills, and if their palm is greased, you can get quite a satisfactory performance Elan out the back end. Or ship the car to a specialist to do the job.

But if you want the special feeling that goes with having a completely production correct car, than that is the correct course for you. The Elan community is large enough for both points of view, as well as everything inbetween.

David
1968 36/7988

I have a friend who had what was arguably the ultimate road Elan, it had every modification you can imagine short of a sequential gearbox (which he kept talking about getting), 2 liter Cosworth BDP w/ fuel injection (262hp /197 ft-lbs), dry sump bigger brakes, LSD, 26r bodyshell, spyder suspesnion bits, fuel cell, the list goes on and on. He had over $75k in receipts, the engine alone cost $35k. It was imaculate! Once with me as a passenger in the car we saw off a Ferrari F430 with it, the car was outrageous. Probably did mid 3's to 60.

Unfortunately he was forced to sell it. Perhaps if his situation was different he could have held out for a better buyer, but in the end he had to let it go for around $30k ( I was in tears, if only I had the money at the time)



Personally, I would be willing to pay more for a modified car if it was done the way I wanted it to be (unfortunately there are a lot butchered Elans out there), but I buy the car to enjoy it and originality does not interest me. My Elan is far from original and I have done a lot of modifications, but pretty much everything I have done to it could have been done in 1967 too (of course there are subtle new tricks/technology to these modifications to squeeze more power and reliability out of it).
I don't think I could ever sell (foolishly I almost did) it for what it is worth to me now, both in terms of fun and sentimental value (restored it with my father)

[RotoFlexible]

They never had quallity , parts were not available when new so folk bodged the crap oit of them and still do it today even when parts are available, the waterpumps always broke (see ten year in the garage)

I know that our British brethren use this word in all innocence - our "botch" or worse - but please, let it stay on that side of the pond!

Andrew Bodge a/k/a RotoFlexible

[Frank Howard]

The performance at the time, 0-60 of 8 sec, 60-0 in 150 ft, .73 g cornering, and 115 top speed was very good, especially considering the purchase price.

But that performance is bested by a goodly number of sedans now, and a revised performance of 0-60 <6 sec, 60-0 <120>.9 g cornering, and top speed >140 is a 21st century target...cranking 20K or so into the project gets you a nice performance vehicle. Certainly, if it was worth 15K (for example) to start, you are not going to get 35K afterward. But in 20 years, that stock Elan may be 40K, and a dog, while your modified wheels will easily get 50K if you have everything documented.

But if history repeats itself, I'm afraid that in 20 years, a goodly number of 2027 sedans will blow the doors off your modified Elan. It's a race you can never win. Personally, I couldn't care less if some 16 year old beats me off the line in her Mazda 3 while drinking her Big Gulp and talking on her cell phone, not even realizing she is racing me. The stock Elan was a quick car when it came out 44 years ago. Because the other cars have become so much faster does not turn the stock Elan into a dog. It's just as quick as it was in the 60s. Just my 2 cents.

[Elanintheforest]

I?m with Frank on this one, and the others who appreciate originality. Just take two examples, the Elan and the E Type. Chapman and Lyons each had an amazing team around them when they had these cars designed.. The cars were design icons of their time, and remain so today, some 40 plus years later. These were incredibly talented design artists and engineers, that managed to create a couple of phenomenal looking and performing cars in the early 1960s. The competition had asthmatic big lump engines, cart spring suspension and drum brakes, and the aesthetic appeal, handling and aerodynamics of a brick shithouse. Austin Healey 3000 and Corvette accepted?they looked fantastic, but had all the other attributes.

Yes the Elan and E Type were built down to a price, but for me that?s all part of the appeal. Such design packages within such a budget makes them even more remarkable. The compromises, the trade-offs all add to, what is for me, the essential character of a 30 to 40 year old classic car.

I?ve always felt that if you want a fast car, then go buy one?don?t try to make a slower car better. I certainly don?t have the engineering skills, the aesthetic eye, the creativity or the testing facilities to turn an Elan or and E Type into something truly better than the original team had designed as a complete package. And I haven?t seen any other example of this. If you have, why not post a couple of pics of the flared arch / big wheeled / low profile tyres / spoilers and wings Elan that you think looks better than the original and see if you gain consensus?

And that is the genius of the original designs?they have gained general consensus that they are truly remarkable machines. And even more remarkable, each is the product of essentially one persons vision, skill and experience.

That?s what I?m buying when I buy a stock Elan...not some enthusiastic amature's interpretation of something better.

Just a personal view you understand...you meddlers just keep on doing what you do...there's plenty to go around.
Mark

[mopho]

I?m with Frank on this one, and the others who appreciate originality. Just take two examples, the Elan and the E Type. Chapman and Lyons each had an amazing team around them when they had these cars designed.. The cars were design icons of their time, and remain so today, some 40 plus years later. These were incredibly talented design artists and engineers, that managed to create a couple of phenomenal looking and performing cars in the early 1960s. The competition had asthmatic big lump engines, cart spring suspension and drum brakes, and the aesthetic appeal, handling and aerodynamics of a brick shithouse. Austin Healey 3000 and Corvette accepted?they looked fantastic, but had all the other attributes.

Yes the Elan and E Type were built down to a price, but for me that?s all part of the appeal. Such design packages within such a budget makes them even more remarkable. The compromises, the trade-offs all add to, what is for me, the essential character of a 30 to 40 year old classic car.

I?ve always felt that if you want a fast car, then go buy one?don?t try to make a slower car better. I certainly don?t have the engineering skills, the aesthetic eye, the creativity or the testing facilities to turn an Elan or and E Type into something truly better than the original team had designed as a complete package. And I haven?t seen any other example of this. If you have, why not post a couple of pics of the flared arch / big wheeled / low profile tyres / spoilers and wings Elan that you think looks better than the original and see if you gain consensus?

And that is the genius of the original designs?they have gained general consensus that they are truly remarkable machines. And even more remarkable, each is the product of essentially one persons vision, skill and experience.

That?s what I?m buying when I buy a stock Elan...not some enthusiastic amature's interpretation of something better.

Just a personal view you understand...you meddlers just keep on doing what you do...there's plenty to go around.
Mark

Nonsense, people (including Lotus) were "meddling" with Elans even when they were new. The 26r came about from such "meddling"


If the modifying the car makes it more enjoyable to drive, that is what really counts

[Elanintheforest]

From 1963 to 1973 the results of the factory 'meddling' aren't too obvious...a little more waterproofing for the dhc and a (very) little more power and... that's about it. Not too much in 10 years. Of course the race cars were developed, as were the lightweight E Types, but surely that's a different story?
Mark

[mopho]

Obviously the car is fine stock, but that does not mean there is not room for improvement. Car companies are often constrained by a price point, or marketing goals and the designers often don't get to produce the car they really want or have the ability to produce, it is a compromise. Lotus could have made a really hot rodded version of the Elan but then they would have had to deal with (more)reliability issues, more expense, etc., and the owner might have had to sacrifice comfort and drivability, something that not everyone wants. They have to design cars to the lowest common denominator.
The same issues exist today. Even the Elise can be improved upon.

The fact that the Lotus had to meddle with them in order to make them perform better as race cars is evidence that there was room for improvement. They certainly could have made the street cars this extreme, but not everyone wants a street legal race car.

Since the beginning of the automobile people have been trying to modify production cars to make them faster, handle better, look better. I have articles from the sixties and early seventies of Elans with Broadspeed engine modifications, Cosworth swaps, big flares etc.
If they were doing it then, why not now?



I do work for a car magazine, I get to drive a lot of new cars and exotics, few are as fun as my Elan. I modified my car to make it a bit quicker, handle a bit better, and to be more reliable, as a result, it still retains it's character and is a lot more fun. I also did so without adding big flares, wings, etc, as I said, pretty much everything I have done, someone could have done in 1967. I like that my car feels like a 1960's race car But of course some people don't want that

[chicagojeff]

it's funny, all car marques have this same discussion. i had a couple of 2002's...we used to argue the same stuff. But different brands can tolerate mods to different degrees and still maintain market values. There was actually a better argument for "stock" 2002s since they are generally more rteliable. but also, making some mods is more in keeping with chapman and a racing heritage than a bmw. i guess at the end of the day, if you make mods, consider making them reversable, because if you go too far, you no longer have a elan...you have a miata I guess...

[mopho]

i guess at the end of the day, if you make mods, consider making them reversable, because if you go too far, you no longer have a elan...you have a miata I guess...

Not even close

[Frank Howard]

Geez. Looks like I started WW3. Should have kept my mouth shut. Probably should shut it now too. But I won't of course.

I'm not against modifying the cars. If I were, I would have never exchanged my Lucas starter for a Super Starter. I would have never exchanged my Lucas generator for a Mitsubishi alternator. I would have never exchanged the points for electronic ignition. I would have never exchanged the two slot fuse box for a 16 slot box. I would have never exchanged the 3 relays for 8. I would have never exchanged the plastic fuel line for metal. I would have never exchanged the stock exhaust for stainless steel. I would have never installed an ammeter, a CD player, a power antenna, a boot light, a glove box lamp, an extra interior lamp, a garage door transmitter, a master cut off switch, or a remote starter switch. The list goes on and on.

The point I was trying to make is sure, many modern day econo boxes will out accelerate, out brake, and out corner a stock Elan. It just doesn't bother me. And if you modify your car to try to stay ahead of the pack, the econo boxes of 2027 will be out accelerating, out braking, and out cornering your modified Elan. It's a battle that you can never win. I guess what I'm trying to say is just because other cars improve, that doesn't make your Elan (modified or not) a dog.

If we all agreed, this would be one boring forum. I certainly enjoy reading other points of view.

[mopho]

The point I was trying to make is sure, many modern day econo boxes will out accelerate, out brake, and out corner a stock Elan. It just doesn't bother me. And if you modify your car to try to stay ahead of the pack, the econo boxes of 2027 will be out accelerating, out braking, and out cornering your modified Elan. It's a battle that you can never win. I guess what I'm trying to say is just because other cars improve, that doesn't make your Elan (modified or not) a dog.

Yeah, but it's a battle you can never win with any car though, even new cars. There is always going to be someone faster

I'm certainly not modifying the car to stay ahead of the pack or because it was a dog, I modified it to be more fun/exhilarating



Also, it's possible in 2027 cars may be slower due to the need for economy over performance



And I object to your garage door transmitter, that is extra weight!

[Frank Howard]

[/quote]Yeah, but it's a battle you can never win with any car though, even new cars. There is always going to be someone faster[/quote]
I guess I take that back. It's a battle you can never win with an Elan. You can however, win it with new cars. You just have to commit to purchasing the fastest car available on a regular basis.