FHC vs DHC/Roadster Values

[Ross Robbins]

Does anyone have a sense of the difference in market value between a same condition coupe and drophead or roadster. My sense is that tops that go down make values go up, but by how much?

And where does one find some sense of market value for our cars? Keith Martin's numbers for all Lotuses are skewed because he doesn't like them. Anyone, anyone, Bueller?

[MintSprint]

Are we talking US or UK values?

From watching the prices of cars for sale in the UK, I'd say that fixed heads are worth between 80-85% of the value of a drophead in equivalent specification and condition.

[Ross Robbins]

Well, I'm in the USA but it would be interesting to see the differences in perceptions in different places. And we could do the math really easily now that the pound sterling is almost exactly 2:1 to the dollar.

[1964 S1]

Howdy, this one's been hashed out on numerous threads here, keywords value or pricing should work to find them. The best way to determine what they're worth is to watch eBay closely worldwide, including going into their Completed Listings and see what stuff is actually selling for, that's what determines what they're worth. Also, hemmings.com and www.lotusowners.com/forsale.htm may help. I pretty much agree that the type 36 is 75% to 85% of the types 26 and 45 in the same condition. And then there's the type 50...

[jmesh]

Hi Ross,

There are currently 2 S3 Elans for sale at Chequered Flag in LA, an FHC and a DHC. The prices they're asking are silly but I know that they paid $15,500 for the fixed head (per the prior owner) and about $21,000 for the drop head (on ebay).

I've seen the coupe and it was nice; good paint and supposedly a fresh engine rebuild. The DHC was a daily driver that looked awesome in the EBay pictures.

Hope that helps.

Jason

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

In the UK the open version always achieves higher prices. There has been a big boom in cabrio sales for new cars in this country, which is amazing considering the weather.
Knowing what an Elan is really worth is not so easy.
The prices being asked are not necessarily the prices being paid.
For example in last months issue of "Classic & Sports car" 3 tidy Elans were offered for sale in the "classifieds", the prices ranged between ?15k & nearly ?26k.
Over the top for the present market place, I would have thought?
John

[sk178ta]

If you look at www.classicandsportscar.com and click on buyers guide you`ll see that drop head anything is worth much more than fixed head. Some Aston Martins are worth nearly twice as much, but it depends on the rarity of the drop heads which doesn`t apply to Elans. Nor incidentally, to MGB`s where a GT is worth, in the real world, less than half the price of a similar roadster.
Again, incidentally, at the H&H auction yesterday (see www.classic-auctions.co.uk) it was noticeable that MGs and TRs are reaching maybe 20% more than a year ago. In recent years dhc Elans have been worth around twice as much so maybe Elan sellers need to be asking a bit more.
Jim

[msd1107]

Hmmm, this is an area that I have never quite understood.

Maybe it is because I come from a motorcycle background, where in the 60s I had a modified bike that would obliterate an Elan except in steady state cornering.

So when I got my Elan, I did not want wind in my face, or the aerodynamics inefficiency of a canvas top or its maintenance problems. But to each their own.

It is hard to determine from the published lists just what the breakdown was in the production figures of FHC and DHC. Lotus ran chassis numbers consecutively and only the type number separated them.

But the number of FHCs is substantially less than DHCs, and many of those have been converted from FHC to DHC. So we have a large pool of DHCs of every series.

There are the early non airflow S3 FHCs, very early S4 FHCs, and late Sprint FHCs that are very limited in number. I very rarely see any of these reach market (who has seen a FHC between 7894 and about 8000 on the market?).

On the other side of the coin are the S1s and other DHC with hardtop additions. All 26Rs are nominally roadsters, but often race with hard tops.

But it is the market that drives prices. Even if there were only 10% as many FHCs as DHCs, if no one wanted a FHC, it would still bring less. Look at the +2 market vs the baby Elan. Many people love their +2 cars, but the market has deprecated the value of these cars so badly that often they are broken up instead of being restored.

So, again, to each their own. If the market demands a DHC, be prepared to pay a premium for your new DHC. If you want a FHC, at least for now you get an Elan for a lesser price. But if you plan to keep your existing car, none of this matters, except for the reduced insurance premiums.

David
1968 36/7988

[Ross Robbins]

Thanks to all. I appreciate how subjective and difficult this subject is, but I have an increased comfort zone with it now. This forum is a wonderful resource.

[chicagojeff]

David made a lot of good comments. Another reason that it's hard to price FHC vs DHC is that Elans themselves are very inelastically supplied. Meaning, there ain't a lot of them, so in finance-speak, the transactions you see are somewhat spotty, and there are huge price variations for what sound like (on paper or email) the same car.

One reason for this is that unlike, say a 1979 MG, it is hard to drive a fully "stock" Elan. Many, many get modified not out of some misguided tuner mentality, but because it is necessary to make them driveable. That's part of what it means to own one...you make mods if they are in the spirit of Chapman. Moreover, some mods are pretty expensive (like CV joints instead of donuts) and you see owners wanting to recoup some of those costs.

I have a a 67 pre airflow coupe. It is nice in the cold weather in Chicago, but not as nice in the summer (when it isn't absolutely baking). then I wish I had the convertible.

This debate, FHC vs DHC , has been raging with Jag E Types for some time. Most folks think that the FHC look better, and are better performers (Stiffer)...now the market seems to be bringing FHC Jag prices closer to DHC. And, again, the +2 story with Jags and Ferraris is something to watch. There will be a lot more transactions for those cars, so the data might be interesting to apply to ours.

[garyeanderson]

I think Jeff is onto something with folks modifying cars for there own personal needs/wants. Some people want bone stock of which there are a limited pool of Elans, DHC's or especially Coupe's . Some of these mods add value and some just kill the percieved value. There are as Jeff points out a limited number of Elans that change hands, once you buy one its hard to let go. Then there are people like Jeff Howard and myself and a few others who have bought quite a few over the years, I think that Jeff Howard had a dozen at one point, I still have 7 and a couple of partials. If you go through the back issues of Lotus Limited membership rosters you will find a few more. I have sold two Elans in the last 5 or 6 years, a Coupe and a DHC. both built and modified to my personal tastes. The Coupe brought $18k two years ago and the the DHC I sold 5 or 6 years ago for $16,500, I delivered it to Maryland from Massachusetts as part of the price. Both wer pretty nice, the Coupe was just finished and fairly stock (by my standards) it had some issues like a welded non original chassis and the nose had recieved a new front corner that was bonded in before I got it. It also had a non original 1700cc Lotus twincam that put out an estimated 130hp and I got to drive it only once, I sold it because I wanted a 1960 Elite. The DHC was a Elan I bought crashed and I put a very nice Early Spyder chassis in and it also recieved a full nose section. When I bought it was cut off at the firewall and a lot of glass work to get it looking good. I drove it for 8 years and put close to 40k miles on it inclucing a 9000 mile cross country trip that took in 19 states and 3 provinces. I finally sold it as I had lost some storage/work space (16ft x 68 ft) and needed to thin the herd. I still have too many projects, some nearly done some will never be done.

Gary E. Anderson

[elancoupe]

You teased us, Gary, now let's see a pic of that Coupe.

I think the FHC's will always be worth less than DHC's, it's that way with nearly all cars that have offered both.

For my part, I just prefer the looks of the Coupe. As rare as seeing another Elan on the road is, I kinda like being just a bit more exclusive in my FHC.

[1964 S1]

Keeping Lotus racing heritage in mind I offer these thoughts. An original anything is worth more than a modified anything. Old convertibles are worth more than old hardtops. Chopped, re-welded, rebuilt wrecks don't determine what original cars are worth. Buying and selling anything is a fluid exercise. One day our Elans will be like dealing in cheap Duesenbergs (long after we're dead and gone), the good original examples will bring ten times what the modified, rebuilt, or re-welded chassis model is worth.

[garyeanderson]

Hi Mike
I still have two Coupes, RHD S3 early airflow and a coverted RHD S4. I had the complete colection until I sold the pre-airflow. They are my second favorite Elan after the S2 Roadster with hardtop. My S2 is just to noisy with the top on, so the hardtop sits in the house most of ther time. Anyway back to the $18k Coupe. As with all of my Elans, I build them for myself from junks I buy around the country and this pre-airflow was no exception. The body was pretty good so I stripped off the paint, a gold laquer or something the got real soft when warm, I was literally pulling off 2 foot long by 6 inch strips once it was about a 110 degrees in the August sun. It was 90% naked in a day. Under the paint it was pretty good so I didn't have to do much body work, fill a few digs I put in with the chissle stripping it. The seam from the front quarter repair was some what visable but I had already been told I was probably going to loose the building I was in to a parking lot for the new comuter rail line to Boston. I had about a years notice to do the bodywork for 3 cars. I didn't have the time to re-glass the quarter nose right so I hoped for the best. The seam across the front did not show but the seem over the wheel arch did but just slightly. It was painted and I started to assemble it and got it so it looked done on the outside but I had to finish the interior and putting the glass in at home. The engine was in but not plumbed for water or fuel. The head was rebuilt with oversize valves and new guides. The Cams were C type from the white DHC in the photos above, as was the 1700 cc short block with steel main caps. The short block had 30 to 35 thousand miles
The suspension was spax adjustable with ajustable perches front and rear, new fast road springs, alloy mounts for the rack, u-joint replaced the rag joint in the stering column, all new urethane bushings except the rear outer A arm and new donuts (I cheeped out here as I bought the S3 airflow about this time and couldn't justtify RD Enterprises CV kit for $1200). The brakes were rebuilt with stainless pistons and new brake pads and all new lines with steel flex lines. The tires were a new set of RE92 bridgestones. The gearbox was a semi-close (again from the white S4 and had one of the three 3.55 differential gears I have accumulated over the years. The interior had a new headliner and carpet kit and the dash was one that I made to use as a pattern for the S3 and S4 dashes that I was building so it wasn't drilled for switches (more later) or glovebox. Anyhow seeing this is getting long, I got it pretty well done and the soon to be new owner wanted it for the summer and I was running late. All of the electical tested out fine and it all worked. The car ran but it had never been road tested. I had title problems, when I bought the Elan the back of the title was filled out in someone elses name, it had been through 2 other owners and never re-titled so I had to chase down the guy whose name was on the back. It was signed in 1981 and so there were penilties and interest due. I went to see Dave and gave him $280 (all the money I had in my wallet) and the title and asked his to see what he coud do. 3 week later I called and asked what happened. The value was listed as one dollar and they applied penilties and interest to that for a total of $57 (50 for the title itself). The soon to be new owner didn't want to wait for me to re-title in my name so I gave him the new title sigbed by Dave. I guess I never really owned the Elan. As it turned out I should have titled it and drove it, there are just to many thing you cant test in a 12 x 16 shed. and just about all of them bit me on the ass. The speedo, fuel, temp gauges didn't work, the Gallon of gas didn't leak but it did when I put $20 in before delivery all you could smell is gas in the boot. Anyhow the new owner took posession and registered that day and we went for a blast. (I had the Biggest FiretrUCKEN grin), I was real sorry I had sold it. The buyer was kind pissed at me but I really should have driven it but the new owner didn't want to wait and loose the summer months. I guess I couldn't win, it was a Rock and hard place deal.

I actually might have made a couple grand on this car (it helped that I only paid a grand for the roller) but it took over a year to do and I would never do it again this way. I don't think I paid my self a dollar an hour, probably more like 70 cents.

I only have a couple of digital photos, I have to get the film photos scanned one day.

Arnt you glad you asked Mike?

[garyeanderson]

I am not in any way implying that this is the value of a stock Elan.
I quallified my statements as to what, where and when. Seeing no one else was giving any actual monitary value of U.S. market except for what was listed in a magazine, I gave some actual nimbers that I know of because I did the deals. These were the real numbers at the time and in the time I had to do them. There are very few stock Elans left anywhere and they probably don't ever get driven in a way that they were ment to.
I don't particularly like the stock ride or power, and I don't care if it hurts the value. These are my cars and I build them how I want them, not how Ron Hickman did or anyone else. I have never bought an Elan and paid more than $4500. Every last one of them was beaten to within an inch of the scrapyard. But no one scaps Elans, they break and get left in a garage for 10 years then they get pushed out into the driveway and covered with a tarp, a little later onto the lawn and the tarp blows off or rots in place and then they are sold for about $2000 on average. I can drive my Elans Like I stole them and if a crash it, I'll pull out another and fix the crashed Elan or use it for parts. How many Elans have you sold, or just what are other people paying for there new rides? if you really think these cars are going to be the next hot collector car, keep dreaming. Lotus cars have a bad rap they will never shake. They never had quallity , parts were not available when new so folk bodged the crap oit of them and still do it today even when parts are available, the waterpumps always broke (see ten year in the garage)

I've been doing this for over 30 years and I'll be a DPO until the last day of my life and then some, thankyou

Gary E. Anderson

I guess you struck a chord

PS You do have a nice S1, they are just out of my price range