Factors affecting value.....

[fillpoke]

Hi All, I'm hoping that the vast amount of collective knowledge on here may be able to help me out in valuing a car that I may have the chance to buy. The vehicle in question is a red 1968 Series 4 FHC which was restored in 2000 and has seen very little use since. Condition wise I would say that out of 10 it would merit perhaps a 6. There are a couple of factors which may (or may not - I don't know) affect the value. The first is that when the car was restored it was fitted with a Spyder spaceframe chassis. Obviously this isn't original so how would it affect the value? The other is that it has Strombergs rather than Weber/Dellortos, which I would imagine would make it less desirable. Am I correct on that? I'm in the North East of England by the way, so value would be for the uk market. Thanks very much for any help/advice you may be able to give me........

[berni29]

Hi There

The market doesn't really like the Strombergs, but if set up correctly they can me very nice. My experience of the Webers is that they are a total PITA to get to run well, especially in winter. So that aspect would not worry me. Also the Spyder spaceframe chassis are superior to the standard, so don't mark the car down for that.

Hope the car works out for you.

Berni

[TonyA]

I would worry why a car fully restored in 2000 but hardly used since, comes to be in only 6/10 condition..My advice: irrespective of how much poor condition discount the seller accepts, don't touch a neglected, unloved or badly stored Elan unless you have the inclination, time, facilities and skills to fix all the inevitable gremlins yourself...Moreover unless you COULD fix it yourself, or have a classic lotus specialist best freind, you will pay lots of money to poeple whose work you can't judge, on many occasions, wait lots of time and probably break your heart . Buy a loved car in sparing but regular use instead..

Tony

[Andy8421]

The next few years are going to be interesting for the classic car market. With the eventual demise of ICE cars on the horizon, owning a classic is going to be more of a challenge. There will be a tipping point where obtaining the necessary fuels / oils will become a specialist business, with the attendant increases in price and reduction in convenience. No petrol stations nearby, fuel delivered to your home in 25 gallon drums to keep your classic on the road.

For some time we have seen the reduction in the skilled workforce required to restore classics and keep them running as older workers retire. Costs for restoration and maintenance continue to increase - if you can actually find anyone to do the work for you. There is also a tendency to buy cars that you liked when you were young - as we all age, that window moves through time.

I believe the result of this will be a reduction in demand for classic cars, and a commensurate reduction in price. I don't see much future for 70s onward 'nearly classics', I think these will become unsellable. Equally, any car with custom electronics (cars post the 80s) will become scrap when the electronics eventually fail.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the market in high end cars in the UK now CGT has been increased. This end of the market was more about speculation in a CGT free asset than the pleasure of running around in a classic, maybe it will get a temporary boost thanks to the current government's policies.

I do think there is still a niche for real collectors cars pre-electronics, low volume cars that were special in some way. Competition cars, cars with particular provenance or significance. I do put our Elans in that camp, but as we have recently seen, they aren't immune from a softening of the market.

Anyway, back to the OP. If you want a car to drive, and aren't buying it as a speculative play, then its much more important to find a good, honest car that is in decent mechanical and cosmetic order. Spyder frames are considered to be better (stiffer, more rust resistant) than the original design, and many reports I have read describe the Stromberg engined cars as a smoother and nicer drive than Webers or Dellortos.

However, originality trades at a premium, and is likely to become more important as time goes on. Stromberg engined cars tend to be discounted as Webers / Dellortos have a 'sportier' reputation, and heck, this is supposed to be a sports car.

You pays your money.....

[ericbushby]

Hi There.
The answer is obvious to me.
If you want the car and are just asking for help on the valuation then you have had some and may get more soon.
if you have doubts about the modifications or condition or whether it is a good idea then do not buy it.
There will be another along soon. I looked at eight cars before I bought mine. It may involve travelling long distances, but you will find what you want.
Best of luck
Eric in Burnley
1967 S3SE DHC

[elans3]

Unlike berni29, I am a Weber / Dellorto fan. Don't like Strombergs . Webers, in fact, as long as they are well maintained, obviously rebuilt at least once in their lifetime are far more reliable than people think.
On my last S3 S/E, I rebuilt the carbs when I got the car. Spent a few hours cleaning and re-gasketting them, re-balanced them when they were back on the car, fitted new, strong spring to the adjustment screws, then did 4500 miles over two years without touching them, and they were still running perfectly when I sold the car.
The key is really knowing how to set them up, and new springs so that the adjustment doesn't move once set.
I run a Mitsuba electric fuel pump, no choke connected, a Aldon Ignitor electronic ignition , It takes 4 pumps of the throttle to start instantly from cold in the summer, 5 in the winter. No churning over whatsoever.

I did exactly the same with my Alfa Twincam's 40 DCOE's. It's now done 7500 miles over seven years, and I haven't had to touch the carbs.
Personally I wouldn't buy a Stromberg - headed car, but that's just me.
I would echo other's thoughts above though, like buy the best you can, particularly if you're not experienced in Loti.

[JonB]

I think there’s a lot of anti Stromberg bias in the Elan world. I had Dellortos on my Plus 2 and they liked to go out of balance with regularity. Fuel economy was dreadful and they suffer from evaporation leading to excessive cranking at cold start.

My S4 has Strombergs. It is under restoration at the moment but I am pretty sure I will be happy with it once it hits the road. If not, there are other options available such as modern Mikuni carburettors. My point is, keep an open mind. And buy with eyes open. As the engineers say, you get what you inspect, not what you expect. In other words, go look at it. It’ll be obvious enough if it’s a dog.

You may be well advised to wait. Achieved values (especially at auction) seem to be going down at the moment, quite alarmingly. Asking prices are still high but how many of them are actually selling? I think it’s a buyer’s market, at least for now. See recent discussion : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=54966

Oh, and Eric’s advice is golden. Don’t be afraid to walk away. As he says another will be along soon enough.

[EPC 394J]

fillpoke

There are frequent, heated discussions on this forum regarding spaceframe chassis. Just search here for “Spyder chassis DVLA”. You will read both sides of the argument. I would say two things. Firstly, be very certain the VIN/Chassis/Frame No on the V5 matches the data plate in the engine bay, and does not reflect anything connected to the spaceframe chassis! Secondly, personally I would definitely use the presence of a Spyder chassis as a reason to negotiate the price. The seller may well baulk at this suggestion, but there are a few people who have most definitely had headaches with this arrangement. Just search the forum.

[wdb]

In the Porsche community I frequently hear "you're buying the owner as much as the car". I have to agree with the prior comment wondering how a 2006 restoration became a 6/10. Even a restored car, if neglected and/or stored in less than wonderful conditions, can revert rather quickly to being a 50 year old relic. Spend some time making that determination, if you can.

I'm actually an SU guy deep down there somewhere and resented the Strombergs when they replaced my beloved carbs on US cars. But they did so because they were better at metering fuel in ways in which emissions systems approved. So they're okay, dagnabit.

That's as much help as I can give. Still on the learning curve.

[elans3]

I think there’s a lot of anti Stromberg bias in the Elan world. I had Dellortos on my Plus 2 and they liked to go out of balance with regularity. Fuel economy was dreadful and they suffer from evaporation leading to excessive cranking at cold start.

It's not just in the Lotus Elan world.
With Strombergs fitted to many, many cars, mainly sports saloons over the 60's and seventies, (and I've owned quite a few of them), look at Vauxhall 2300 Firenza's & Magnums, (I changed the Strom's to 2" SU's in my road rally cars), Imp sports (changed to a single downdraught Weber ), Avenger GT (changed to twin 40 Webers or Dellorto's), the Rootes 1725cc engines (Alpines, Hunter GT's etc), and Triumph TR6's (US spec usually changed to SU's).
In all those marque forums you'll find a bias towards changing out the Strombergs to something different, because of the difficulty in maintaining them, and their performance after a time.
Back in the day, I could never rebuild them to perform as they did when new, and that's probably why I erred towards the Weber, SU & Dellorto conversions, finding them much easier to set up once rebuilt correctly.
Each to his own, I guess.

[JonB]

Well, fair enough. I’ll wait until I have some experience with them before commenting further, but as I said, there are other options in a Stromberg Elan. Not SUs- I think they won’t fit under the bonnet..

Cheers
JonB

[shynsy]

Having been someone who has spent the last decade in TR6 world I'd agree that people swap the strombergs out for SUs. I think this is mainly due to the much larger support for SUs. But there are a few stromberg geniuses out there who can rebuild them to work, certainly as well as SUs on standard tune cars. Unfortunately the lack of needles compared to SUs makes them more of a challenge when you move the engine from standard tune.
Tim

[Elanintheforest]

Well, fair enough. I’ll wait until I have some experience with them before commenting further, but as I said, there are other options in a Stromberg Elan. Not SUs- I think they won’t fit under the bonnet..

Cheers
JonB

They do fit John. I have a set here that came off an early Elan 1600. When it was restored it had the correct weber head and carbs fitted, and I bought the Stromberg head and SUs as spares for the S4 I had then.

Mark

[jonnyg]

In answer to the original post, I think Tony A's advice is sound - better to buy a car that has clearly been well looked after, kept up to scratch, and used regularly if sparingly. And it's always worth checking out the car's MoT history on the DVLA website too - it will tell you a lot about mileage/regularity of use, and personally I would find it more reassuring to buy a car that had a good MoT history and evidence that any advisory issues had been addressed in timely fashion.
On the related point of carburation, there are clearly strong views on all sides, but in my view what's more important is how the car drives in regular use in the most frequently encountered road conditions. If it goes well, does it really matter if the car is on Webers, Dellortos or Strombergs? I had the Strombergs on my S4 fully reconditioned and rebuilt by Burlen (nr Salisbury) not long after I bought the car, and now with a Facet fuel pump, electronic ignition, new battery, starter solenoid, plugs and plug leads the car starts easily first time, every time with no fuss. It idles perfectly in traffic and goes very well around town and on the open road (all thanks to the expert ministrations of Jon at Purbeck Sports Cars). So I'm happy with the Strombergs and I wouldn't let the carbs put you off buying a car that ticked all your other boxes. (And JonB, your S4 will be fine on the Strombergs when your restoration is finished, I'm sure).

[TonyA]

I didn't comment on the Stromberg vs Weber debate, that is until out of curiosity I looked into what Strombergs Lotus used on Elans ( mine has Webers) To muy amazement it's the Stromberg model 175CD2S ; the carb on my 1967 Volvo Amaxon admitadly as a single. So turns out I can express a view. During 15 years ownership of the Volvo the Stromberg worked great, was reliable, needed nothing and held it tune. Eventually it became difficult to tune because the bushes and butterfly shaft were so worn, they were letting in too much air, in the process I had taken the carb apart, replaced diaphragm, float and seals with ethanol freindly components from Burlen , and had them do the rebushing. Carb became good as new. I have to say that in terms of ruggedness and simplicity, you can't beat this carb model. I could dismantle and set it up in the dark, on the side of the road with a screwdriver and a small adjustable soanner ! The Webers on my Plus 2 S130 work great and appear to hold their tune, but refurbishment, set up and tuning are on another level of complexity: I think that's what makes them so highly prized though..! I'd be scared to touch them -for black belts only I think..! Tony