Information and miss-information on my 1966 Elan

[bobm3142]

This is my story of information and miss-information. I have a beautiful 1966 S3 Elan and it came with a few relatively minor problems that had to be fixed since it did not run properly (distributor and carb, problems), had an exceedingly worn water pump, doors that did not close well, a fuel gauge that didn?t work properly, a hand brake that needed adjustment, smoking electrical wiring around the fuel tank (!), an unknown status (with respect as to the parts on it), serious oil leaks from the engine and gearbox, worn prop-shaft universal joints, poor voltage regulation (too low), front suspension (individually adjustable) well out of adjustment and to top it all I smashed the front end a little (cosmetic but quite a mess). All this sounds a lot, but most of it was so easily rectified once I took the trouble to delve into it myself and uncover the good advice/knowledge and reject the rubbish. I was surprised me most, by the fact that some of the poor input came from some of those who claimed to know and from some of those who were paid to know. The previous owner had paid for a garage (with a rolling road) to tune the car, try to sort oil leaks and to sort the doors. In my view the money was completely wasted.


1. The Lotus Elan Expert

I had booked my Elan into a Lotus specialist, with real knowledge of the Elan, for them to look at the poor running, advise me on the oil leaks, adjust the hand brake, sort the fuel gauge reading, adjust the door closing and tell me what car/engine I had actually got. Then I smashed the front, so commissioned (insurance claim) then to repair it and look at these issues and generally advise me about the car. After 5 weeks they had clearance to do the insurance work so proceeded to look at the car. They noticed the worn water pump and so asked me to meet them to discuss engine removal and strip down. Their advice was that the engine had to be removed and stripped (top and bottom off) to gain access to replace the water pump but even with this that there would still be oil leaks potentially from several places (old British sports cars always leak oil). They fitted new seals to the drive shaft (engine and gearbox), a new flywheel, new drive shaft UJ?s and new water pump. I did not allow a complete engine re-build though. The car is totally oil leak free now and has remained so for about 2 years (so it is definitely possible to attain leak free ? and I?m sure that no car left the Lotus factory with oil leaks). Since I had asked these Elan experts to advise on exactly what car I had and what engine I had (it had a genuine BRM cam box cover but I was suspicious as to whether the cylinder head was BRM since the only receipt I had was for the cover!) I expected them to look at what pistons, valves and cams it had. However, they put it back together without any of this info. The body work repair was absolutely brilliant. They adjusted the hand brake cable (easy to do with the engine out). They said that the engine ran well at high revs and ticked over OK but to sort out the normal running would mean throwing considerable money at the carbs and I clearly didn?t want to do that so would have to put up with it. They had looked at the doors and said that the driver?s door needed a new lower white metal hinge cup fitting and that the near side door needed a 5/16th Helicoil. This would be two day?s work. Since I just wanted the car back (after 3 months) I did not commission this work. The car has modified suspension that can be individually adjusted, on all 4 wheels. One front wheel was COMPLETELY slackened off and the handling was really bad. This must have been clearly visible at the time of accident repair (completely exposed and part of the checks must have included making sure that the suspension, steering, etc. were undamaged/repaired) and was extremely dangerous. In all I felt a little bit let down, but the work they did was excellent and I am sure that if I had asked them to refurbish the entire car, to a near original condition, they would have done a really great job (but at what extra cost? It cost me ?2500 for the water pump, etc.).


2. Tuning

The Lotus expert had returned the car to me with the timing set at 8oAFTER TDC so I set it statically to 10oBTDC. I did this by looking for a spark on the No1 spark plug lead whilst rocking the car in top gear with the ignition on. It never registered with me that this was only possible with conventional points ignition and hence the electronic ignition claimed by the previous owner was not fitted or had been removed. It ran much better but was clearly still not right.
My local garage (great outfit) suggested I took the car to a specialist restoration garage a few miles away since they had the old tuning gear (carb air flow measurement, strobe light). I did this and they balanced the carbs, set the idle jets and set the ignition timing to 14o BTDC static and said that it was as good as they could get it but is was running very rich at 2500rpm (until the main jets took over). They suggested that a guy, close by, who had a rolling road and would be able to get it better. Actually, I should just have gone straight to this guy as advised by someone in this forum. The car still drove like rubbish up to 3000rpm so I took it to the rolling road guy. He no longer had a rolling road (planning didn?t like the noise). However, he really knew carbs and old cars (specialises in Minis though) and racing cars. I stayed while he worked on the car (with me). He put a strobe on it to check the ignition and noticed (immediately) that the distributor was not advancing. Why didn?t the first garage notice this; I paid them ?42 to balance the crabs and time it? The rolling road guy said that the distributor has probably seized and needed refurbishing by a specialist distributor outfit and kindly gave me their contact. To keep me driving he set the distributor to 20o BTDC and looked at the slow running jets in the carbs. The petrol holes had been opened out to twice their normal diameter so as an expedient he opened the air holes out to compensate. The car ran much better than it had before. He said sort the distributor and bring it back to him to sort the carbs. Up until this point I believed that I had electronic ignition since that was what was claimed when the car was given to me. If it ever had been electronic it certainly wasn?t now! This guy really did know carbs and was prepared to use his knowledge. It was very obvious that changing carb jets was very, very easy and quick (10min for all 4 sets total). The advice freely given and paid for previously was wrong and led me down the garden path a bit.
I bought electronic ignition (complete distributor and heavy duty coil) and fitted it myself (?250) and purchased a cheap timing light to set the ignition timing (?16). I also bought new complete sets of jets for the carbs (all sizes ever fitted to the Elan) ?40. Since I didn?t know which size of jet was correct for my engine I observed the cam shaft dwell angle through the oil filler hole and chose the size according to the associated specification (it would have been much better if I knew what pistons, camshaft and valve sizes were actually fitted). 10 mins later (without taking the carbs off or in pieces) I had fitted the appropriate 4 new jet sets. I took the car back to the last garage to check that it was set up well (it was) and no further adjustment was required. It still runs very, very slightly rich at 2800rpm (I?m told that this is quite typical for these engines) but if I correct this, the engine will pop a bit when using it to brake the car and I don?t really want that. Yes the engine could be tuned on a rolling road but I?m not a racing driver!


3 The Doors

I recently took off the doors (having bought a workshop manual). This is very easy to do and takes about 10mins per side to remove. It also gives the chance to service the window winding mechanism easily and gives good access to the connections to the instruments in the front panel to tighten, etc. Sure enough the lower white metal hinge cup, on the driver?s door was slightly oval. To replace this the old one needs to be cut out and a new one bonded in. It has been suggested to me that the best way to do this is to cut out a small square section and bond the new cup into a new square section and then fit to the car. Lack of time and space has deferred this replacement until another time. However, I wanted the door to close properly now so I used a very small amount of epoxy resin, with white metal particles in to return the slightly elongated hole back to a hemisphere. There is no chance that the door could come out. I used a new nylon hinge pin and stood the ball end (very, very lightly coated with grease) in the dish to act as a guide for the epoxy resin. I also had a new white metal cup so that I could see exactly what one looked like. I took the opportunity to clear out the blocked holes in these lower cups on both sides of the car. The holes are there, I surmise, to allow debris and water to run away. I believe that it is the debris acting as grinding paste that causes the white metal to wear, so un-blocking them should be a routine (about every 2 years or so). The door is correctly aligned and all is well. It remains to see how long this bodge lasts ? I will do it properly at some point.
The near side door did not need a Helicoil, as stated by the Lotus expert; it just needed everything tightening. However, some clown had deliberately wedged in a piece of soft nylon in the lower white metal cup (under the nylon hinge pin ball). Why I don?t know, since there was plenty of adjustment left on the nylon hinge pins. All is well with this door too. It is worth working out how you are going to refit the doors and adjust their fit before you do so; easy enough and takes about 10mins per side, but is considerably easier with 2 people for a couple of minutes.


4. Voltage Regulation

The Lotus expert did not pick it up but it was easily sorted by replacing the regulator (?28). One day I may refurbish the old one but it is a specialist job so needs a little research and the right equipment.


5. Hand Brake

I have written advice that these do no work well on the Elan and should only be used for the MOT so that they don?t continually go out of adjustment and stretch the cable, which is always too long in the first place. Rubbish! Yes it is true that after I got it back from the Lotus expert a few pulls later and it was no longer really effective (i.e. just tightening the cable doesn?t work)but when I adjusted the hand brake pads it worked very effectively and has done for 2 years, without further adjustment.


6. Smoking Cable

This was a near miss! When I got it back from the Lotus expert I noticed that the cable insulation (earth wire) around the fuel tank was completely burnt and bare wire showing for about 2 feet. This was caused by poor earthing throughout the car. I have replaced the cable, renewed most of the connectors and improved the earth points (added some more too).


7. Fuel Gauge

The Lotus expert advised that some clown had almost certainly fitted an incorrect sender unit. When I looked to order the correct sender I did find that only one of the two models was still available. So I guessed he was correct. However, having sorted out the earthing it works ok. I am now a little disappointed that the Lotus expert did not notice the burnt wiring since it was coupled directly to the sender unit and was bare at that connection! Surely he checked the connection to the sender unit before condemning it!


8. Problems still to tackle

I have been having trouble keeping warm this winter and had the opposite problem last summer. Silly thing I know, but the heater valve is on upside down so you have to have the knob in for heat and out for cold! When I?m next under the bonnet I?ll see if I can turn it round without draining the coolant. Shame the Lotus expert didn?t do it when he reconnected the cable after refitting the engine!

The heater fan has always made a strange sound (not associated with its rotation) a bit like arcing or burning ? no smell. Now it only runs for about 2 minutes and then slows and stops. I need to check the current it is taking during this and check the cable and associated connections. I suspect that it is the motor itself (insulation breaking down when heated up by the current). To get at the fan I think that I am going to have to drain the coolant and remove the heater (removing the dashboard first).

The speedometer is slow to respond to speed change especially when it is cold. It does eventually reach the correct value. To remove this I will have to remove the trip mileage zeroing wire but haven?t worked out how it comes off yet (maybe I just have to push it up and unscrew it- a little more heavy handed than I tried this morning).

[512BB]

Bob,

Thanks for posting such a complete account of your experiences re your Elan, to date.

I have no doubt you were refering to the inimitable Peter Baldwin, when you were talking about a GENUINE expert in tuning.

Of course, what, or who you fail to mention, are the people who let you down, the SO CALLED EXPERTS, as that would serve as a watch out for others. As I have said many times, state the facts, and the facts alone, and you cannot be sued, and MAYBE, those ner do wells might even buck up their ideas. For clarity, I am NOT suggesting you have not given an accurate account.

The next time you are over PB's way, give me a shout, I am but a stones throw from him, and we can compare notes.

All the best,

Leslie

[rgh0]

The big challenge for people servicing an old car with a bunch of issues is how much time they spend tracking down problems which they may never be paid for identifying and fixing. They tend to focus on the specific things they have been asked to do and just focus on that and deliberately dont look around for other problems especially if they feel the owner will not spend the money because the fix will be expensive for them to do versus the benefit the owner will perceive in the fix ( not implying you would not have done the fix if idnetified properly but that may have been their perception based)

Having said really no excuses aournd the fact that many of your issues should have been fixed the first time and not need you to be persistent and take it to multiple people or do it yourself such as a simple issue like no advance in the distributor

The upside is now you have a much better idea around how to look after your Elan in the future

cheers
Rohan

[Elanintheforest]

Bob
You don't say what you instructed the 'expert' to do. Was it to fix specific faults that you had identified, with financial budget, or was it a more general 'get the car back to perfect condition'? The first tightly controls what the 'expert' will do, and the other is an open cheque.

Unfortunately there is a vast spectrum between those two positions where misunderstandings can and nearly always do occur.

At ?60 / hour on average for labour, you can't get an awful lot done for ?2500...probably 3 or 4 days work plus parts and materials. As you mentioned the car is of unknown status as regards parts and general condition, and as such could consume many hundreds of hours to sort everything out, and a few thousands of pounds in parts cost.

I don't agree with Leslie that the 'expert' should be named and shamed without understanding both sides of the story. On your description, it doesn't sound like he did a good job to identify and fix the issues that you have described, but were all those areas in his brief? If so, what budget did you give him to do the work?

I'm playing devil's advocate here as it is often the case that the customer is not always right...to understate a little...and the cost of getting things fixed by a professional can be very scary . I find that the best places to get work done on an old car nowadays is the specialist who, if he doesn't know the car, will spend a day or so (chargeable) going right through the car, and issue an estimate to fix according to what he finds. The estimate, if the car is 40 years old and of unknown status, can be eye watering to say the least, but the job gets done properly...most of the time!

At least with this approach you can pick what you want him to do, and line up the rest of the work for yourself, and manage your budget accordingly.

Mark

[512BB]

EITF wrote;
I don't agree with Leslie that the 'expert' should be named and shamed without understanding both sides of the story. On your description, it doesn't sound like he did a good job to identify and fix the issues that you have described, but were all those areas in his brief? If so, what budget did you give him to do the work?

Mark, I take your point that when presenting an arguement, a balanced approach is the right course of action. But as far as I can see, Bob has given most, if not all the facts one needs, to form an opinion on the quality of work he received, and in the main, budget plays NO part, in many of the areas he highlights.

Where does budget, or misunderstandings, when returning the car with the correct amount of advance, or not, on the dissy come into it, when the EXPERT COMPANY has had the engine apart? I'm sorry, I just cannot see that there is any room for any ambiguity in the firms brief there.

Bob mentions several other jobs, where there appears also to be no room for error on behalf of the experts, but enough from me. Perhaps he will come back and take up some of the other points raised.

Incidentally, if anybody wants their water pump renewing, I will do it for the princely sum of ?1750, inc. parts!

Leslie

[bobm3142]

Wow, what prompt replies! Very many thanks.

Firstly the names mentioned (in the replies or private messages) are NOT correct (that is the truth). I did not mention any names since my experiences were really one offs (at least for me) and the other parties will have their own side to the story. Having said that, my posting is absolutely accurate and without any embellishment or emotion. I gave clear instruction, in writing as to what I wanted and what I did not agree to (my background taught me to do that). I did not put any financial limit at any time and am satisfied that I was only charged for what they did. I guess it is what they didn?t do that caused my disappointment combined with poor/incorrect advice. I chose my words reasonably well and expressed my disappointment NOT outrage. I do appreciate that time is money and that advice should be kept in proportion and paid for and believe that is what I did. I did not commission the complete engine rebuild since I did not believe that is was necessary for the limited mileage that I intended to do and that if it did need doing then it was something I would quite like to do for myself. I did stop any further work on the doors since after such a long time I just wanted the car back and I thought I would have more work done on the car in the near future.

I didn?t want this posting to appear as simply a moan, rather to be a few words of interest and to say that sometimes the option to get more involved is a good one. I was quite capable of doing all, but the accident work myself. I just thought that I was doing the right thing in getting experts to do it.

It has to be said though, that I would expect anyone rebuilding an engine/re-fitting an engine to check its timing and with an Elan to check the correct functioning of the distributor. I would also expect anyone looking into why the carbs are running way too rich to check the timing (to find it retarded, when I got it home was a disappointment). I now believe that I was hoping too much to expect anyone but a carb specialist to measure the jet sizes in a webber and know if they were wrong. Although, this is easy and quick to do (needs a set of needle gauges, a great deal of care not to open the jets out as you use them, 10 minutess and a copy of the manufacturers' data).

Regards,

Bob

[Elanintheforest]

Well it sounds like you did all the right things Bob.

On the timing issue, I had a recent similar experience with my Escort Twincam. When I bought the car it didn't start too well, and was pretty rough on tickover. I took it up to a twincam expert to get the whole car checked out and specifically sort out the tuning, thinking that due to lack of use the carbs had gummed up. They found the timing to be 30 degrees advanced, which seemed odd as the guy I bought the car off ran a tuning garage....although in his defense, he tunes cars with a laptop! The guys set the car up perfectly, but after testing it for a few miles, it started to run rough again, and on re-timing it, found it had gone back to being very advanced. The problem was a simple one to sort out as it was just the distributor clamp had become worn over the years, and whilst it seemed firmly in place when the engine was cold, it allowed the distributor to move when the engine got hot.

One of those things that can happen with old bits and pieces. I could easily have collected the car and have it go out of tune in the next few days and blamed the guys who tuned it.....but the issue was with an old component and not their capability.

With your situation as you put in writing what you wanted doing, then surely you have some sort of basis to either get the work completed properly, or get your money back?

Mark

[bobm3142]

Hi Mark,
Thanks again for the interest.

It had crossed my mind that the distributor might have been loose. However, I would have expected it to advance itself rather than retard if it were loose and I am confident that I would have noticed it when I got it home and reset the timing; I'm a fairly thourough worker and always inspect/understand what I have in front of me before I start (for example I would count the number of turns to slacken the clamp bolt as I did it so that I had an idea how many turns to re-tighten it). The distributor can be quite easily damaged by overtightening the clamping bolt. I did not remove the distributor cap though but simply pulled the lead of the No. 1 spark plug and rocked the car in 4th gear, with the ignition switched on, to check the timimg and re-adjust it. I did check the timing marks by measuring the No. 1 piston, through the spark plug hole, since I thought that that might actually be the fault; all was correct. I was intent on taking the car to someone who could balance the air flows, set the petrol intake to the carbs and set the timing dynamically. When I replaced the distributor I noticed that the points gap was very, very small and believe that that is the main cause of the retarded state: I know the distributor cap was not removed prior to this because they all accepted that it was electronic ignition.

I would be quite happy to take the car back to the Lotus specialist, for other work, (they really are experts and their work is great) but I would specify the actual work in detail and not just give a writen brief. Shouldn't really be necessary because they know better than I.

I'm not, nor ever was, much interested in the cost of the work so don't want any money back. I only stated the ?2500 to give an indication of how the cost might be silly if I did commission a complere refurbishment of the entire car.

Thanks for your input.

Bob

[Chancer]

6. Smoking Cable

This was a near miss! When I got it back from the Lotus expert I noticed that the cable insulation (earth wire) around the fuel tank was completely burnt and bare wire showing for about 2 feet. This was caused by poor earthing throughout the car. .

Could you explain that as its contrary to my knowledge and experience.

[bobm3142]

Hi Chancer,

The poor earting throughout the car.

The battery earth is in the boot and its connection to the chassis was poor. There is an auxillary connection to the battery earth terminal from the left hand rear light (why I don't know). Since the main battery earth to chassis connection was poor all the current (e.g. starter motor, battery charging, etc.) was forced to travel along the small earth cable all the way to this auxillary battery terminal connection at the rear light. The initial starting current for the starter motor is about 90amps and it then drops down to about 30amps when the starter motor is rotating so it was really cooking the cable. I also found that current from the headlights was travelling down this earth cable. My general experience with other earthing faults has been that they can be very difficult to understand so it is often best to just sort them by cleaning all the contacts so that's what I did. I replaced most of the cable connectors and re-made all the chassis connections.

I hope this clears things up for you but if not please let me know.

Thanks,

Bob