Makes for depressing reading!

[worzel]

Hi to all

I hope I don't live to regret this-but here goes.

To read some of the issues raised on the forum can make for depressing reading- in fact an outsider ie a non-owner could be forgiven for wondering why anyone puts up with these troublesome cars.

I've only ever had 3 elans (two two seaters and a plus 2)- never at the same time I should add because it's my firm belief that more cars (of this type) simply means in most cases that none of them will probably ever be "right" (always some irritating little job to do etc).

I'm not a trained mechanic and I don't think I'm unique but from personal experience of the cars I've owned I can honestly say that it's usually the previous owners who've given me the most headaches rather than the design of the cars being the root cause.

The 1st one I had, bought at six years old had been previously owned by a GP bought for his wife. This was unmodified, never abused and carefully used. During the 4 years or so I had it I used it every day of the year, in commuting traffic and in all weathers. It didn't leak, overheat, foul plugs, vibrate, leak etc.

The next one was a plus 2 of 6 years old- not a good buy- on reflection!. Nothing really seriously wrong but it had clearly not been as well cared for as the elan. Having said that I'd still consider it a better car than the 2 seater in terms of how well the factory screwed it together- this one didn't leak, rattle, smell of petrol, spew oil, vibrate etc.

The 3rd one, a standard spec sprint I bought back in 1978- again at 6 years old- not a good buy at all. I still have this car but it has caused many problems. During the first 2 years of ownership (and I kid you not on this) virtually every month I was doing something major or expensive or both to it. This ranged from fitting the right engine mount to the carb side, curing leaks from the cam cover that caused pretty impressive clouds of smoke from under the bonnet every time I stopped to the lethal where some clown had not tightened sufficiently one of the outer retaining bolts to the rear hub and the alloy hub casting had worn thru to less than one eighth of an inch. The diff leaked, someone had fitted solid, inflexible rear top damper mounts from a commercial vehicle (a main dealer had done that one). Front trunions had probably never been lubricated, the facia was damaged, the wrong starter had been fitted (interesting noises on start-up, the water pump gave up (fan belt too tight) front discs were scored etc and finally the servo seals packed up.

You can add to this poor running- this was a car serviced by a main dealer but they clearly didn't have much idea even then.

So I had to basically carry out a rolling restoration and to some extent this worked- after about 2 years or so I ended up with a useable car- but there were still other problems about to arise. I sonncottoned on to the fact that a piecemeal approach was never going to get anywhere so I decided to do a front to back rebuild in a concentrated way to get the basics right reasoning that the cosmetics could wait.

To cut a long story short, and I really believe this, this is the only way to go about things if you want to end up with something that is not a constant source of irritation. I wanted a "turnkey and forget" car- not one that I basically liked but which spent more time being tinkered with than used. At the risk of sounding smug that is what I've got- but it's taken quite some time (lots) and a certain degree of persistence and not least a determination not to cut corners. Since I built the thing myself I've never had any real problems with it- in fact the last mechanical job of any significance was about 7 years ago when I renewed all rear wheel bearings, dampers, bushes and mounts in one go.

Admittedly I no longer use the car quite as much but that's simply one of choice rather than any inherent problems with it. I'll have to confess though that I made quite a few alterations to make it easy to live with and work on such as a bigger rad, a modern fan, the usual lumenition and better earthing etc but nothing really drastic. Externally it's not altered a lot (apart from reworking of the panel gaps etc) but I've upgraded (in my opinion at least) the trim so it fits properly, doesn't rattle etc and I've cured all the water leaks into the interior.

I did a similar restoration with another maligned car a Scimitar Gte and again the result was what I expected. Those cars are even worse than elans as secondhand buys because inherently they are so tough but low values make them even more likely to be neglected.

The point I'm making is that it's unlikely a "rolling restoration" will ever be finished "properly"- you are more likely to become disenchanted before long. You've only to look at the number of classic cars up for sale with "minor work to complete" as part of the ad.

Sorry if thess views are unpalatable- the types of questions raised on the forum suggest to me that there are going to be a lot of disappointed owners out there made worse by the fact that it seems quite difficult to find garages who really know these cars nowadays.

John

[ppnelan]

John,

You are correct in saying that the only way to get a truly reliable car is to strip everything and start rebuilding from scratch.

I began with this attitude, but found that time & cost constraints crept in. I have ended up with rebuilt suspension on a new chassis (i.e. the handling is OK) and a rebuilt engine. The transmission (4-speed) is fairly sturdy anyway, and the electrics... well, it is possible to solve most problems given enough time !

It is a different challenge to try to keep a rolling restoration operational. I personally prefer to have a car that I can use, most of the time without trouble, rather than waiting 5, 10, or more years (and many ?'s) for the 'perfect result'. If I could spend all my time doing a restoration, it would be a good idea, but I cannot so it would take a l-o-n-g time... Classic cars may well have been banned by then, so I'd rather make the most of driving (& free tax) while it lasts

I will say that my Elan has just destroyed a starter pinion, but this is due to a clutch problem (- has anyone else found that some clutch covers are too big on the outside diameter, fouling the starter pinion??)

Another problem with having a 'perfect car' (speaking as someone who has only seen such things!) is that you may be scared to use it regularly in case of damage....

However, you've made a good point. It is particularly relevant to +2's, since their lower values means that they are often owned & maintained by non-specialist personnel. The higher value of Elans means that they are more likely (although not always!) to be better looked after.

As long as you enjoy your car for what it is, rather than what you would like it to be, you'll be happy

Matthew

[type36lotus]

Hi John,

Your message makes for reality. And let's face reality is not always what we want to hear. But, if this helps someone to justify a complete rebuild/restoration and thusly happy/happier with their car, then you have done a good deed! I restored my Elan from end to end. It was so much fun to drive. But as you stated, it was so nice that every time I drove it I was aware of it being less so. I did not let that stop me from enjoying though, again that is the reality. I did not restore it to be a garage queen or a show car, simply a nicely restored Elan to do with as one should... drive it!

[tower of strength]

from my personal experience with these delightful cars , I have to agree.
In the dim and distant 80's I helped my father to restore a 1968 plus2, once we had re done the previous owners abysmal chassis change (knackered bushes,bearings etc) rebuilt the "rebuilt" engine, replaced the "repaired" (scotch locks and eleventy million extra earths and feeds!!)loom, new door screen and boot seals, new grommetts a proper respray with correctly re aligned panels and a retrim, my mother drove the car every day to work for about 6 years with no problems, everything worked, it didnt leak and looked/sounded great.
The car was regularly serviced by dad and myself. the only failure was of the o/s trunion (whilst turning into the drive,fortunately) shortly after the restoration.
My own plus2s130/5 was a pain. I extracted it from several years of storage and fixed each little issue as they arose (siezed clutch, brakes, u/s handbrake, dodgy electrics. Whilst I used the car regularly it was less of a pain than when it became a "weekend warrior" then I had erratic running, stalling, water leaks and electrical maladies. I gave up on it and sold it.
My current one is having the full resto. If in doubt renew or over haul!!

Mark

[steveww]

I suppose it depends on what you start with but I am currently doing a rolling restoration on my S4. So far so good, I drive it all summer and each winter there is a project to do. However what I started with was basically sound being an older restoration. So far I have fitted a complete new loom, for some reason car electrics appear to be beyond most people which results in bodged wiring. I have also rebuilt the front and rear suspension, fitted a new hood (roof) and various other tweeks.

May be I have been lucky but the Elan has never let me down totally. The only time it failed to proceed was stuck in traffic when it got too hot and I had to stop to let things cool down. This was before I had fitted a new water pump and bigger radiator.

Mechanically the car is sound now but could do with some cosmetic improvements. I would like to have it resprayed and retrimmed, however I look at the stone chips that are collecting on the front and often reconsider the respray

[worzel]

Hi all

Interesting comments- my idea was not to "knock" elans in particular- I believe that across the range of classic cars you'd probably find similar tales of woe.

I'm not saying you cannot do an excellent rolling restoration- plenty do- but I bet the thing they've in common is a lot of determination which often compensates for maybe lack of skill in certain areas. I suspect also that many such owners could probably do a better restoration than "experts".

If you think about it (and forgetting the name on the nose badge) these are relatively simple cars- about the only real complexity are the valve arrangements and the carburation for the uninitiated.

As a footnote many have probably seen the Classics mag article about the Spyder conversion by Jerry Thurston. He seems to be buying in to the reliability/usability myth- I sent him a "pointed" e-mail about this asking whether his comments were from long-term personal experience or anecdotally based. I'll let you know what he says in response (if he replies).

Keep the comments coming in!

John

[tower of strength]

I suspect also that many such owners could probably do a better restoration than "experts".


John

I think the problem here is a lack of understanding of "the real world" by both the owner and the "expert" the owners and experts percieved value of the end product. these cars (a couple of models excepted) and plus 2s in particular cost an awful lot more to restore than they are worth. The average owner does not realise what a proper restoration involves especially body work, and in my experience most body shops underquote. They will then do work to the value of the quote and cut corners, end result is a poor job (sure its bright and shiny, for a couple of years if you are lucky) with stress cracks and blisters showing through. A local independant body shop to me quoted 200+ hours to get my car ready for top coat, he offered a discounted labour rate of ?20 per hour if he got the job (usually charges ?30) after seeing the car he revised it to 250+ hours!! That is ?5000 + materials and VAT. The car a 1970 +2 that also needs, the chassis renovating, engine rebuild, re wire and re trim.
To do one of these properly will cost in excess of ?15K if you pay a proffessional to do everything. The end product is a ?7.5K ish car (my estimate of current market value of a really nicely restored +2).
the sums do not add up!!
A second body shop offered to do the job for ?2K, when I showed him some pics of the GRP repairs, he said he wouldnt have bothered with that and would have covered the car with a " flexible barrier coat" that would stop the cracks coming through. What ever the hell that is, the first body shop is advising me as i do the work my self, he rekons it means "stone chip primer"!!

if potential owners knew what was involved with a restoration, then perhaps the values of the cars would be higher, the sales price of project cars would be lower and the 10 year old unfinished project wouldnt exist!!

As an enthusiastic owner my time is free (till her indoors says otherwise!) and I will probably do around 400 hours on the restoration at least, doing most things my self. Chassis mostly done (rear calipers to do), nearly finnished the GRP repairs to the back of the shell so far.

Mark

[hatman]

[quote="worzel"] . ..an outsider ie a non-owner could be forgiven for wondering why anyone puts up with these troublesome cars.'

But would an outsider/non-owner be reading these forums anyway? Troublesome cars? It's not the cars that are troublesome, only the way they've been treated before current owners got them. As you yourself say:-
'I can honestly say that it's usually the previous owners who've given me the most headaches rather than the design of the cars being the root cause.

'The 1st one I had, bought at six years old had been previously owned by a GP bought for his wife. This was unmodified, never abused and carefully used. During the 4 years or so I had it I used it every day of the year, in commuting traffic and in all weathers. It didn't leak, overheat, foul plugs, vibrate, leak etc.'

There's nothing at all intrinsically wrong with the cars themselves, just the reality that they're now very old, worn out and, in many (most?) cases suffering from abuse, neglect and ham-fistedness from PO's with more enthusiasm than mechanical sense or money. In common with many other desirable cars, a lot of them have suffered the ownership of people who had always lusted after them, could never afford to acquire/run one but eventually did so anyway when the purchase price fell low enough for them to do so - the 'shoestring motoring' effect.

You go on to confirm this when you write about the lemon you bought:-
'Since I built the thing myself I've never had any real problems with it'

'Sorry if thess views are unpalatable- the types of questions raised on the forum suggest to me that there are going to be a lot of disappointed owners out there...' Caveat emptor - it's never a bad idea to do your research BEFORE jumping into the deep end of exotic car ownership.

'made worse by the fact that it seems quite difficult to find garages who really know these cars nowadays.'

True, but 'twas always thus - even when new, many owners took them along to their local Ford dealership for servicing (as they were encouraged to do, based as the cars were on standard Ford mechanicals) and suffered the rather patchy quality of service that is/was the norm at such places. We are, in fact, very well served these days by such knowledgeable, experienced and enthusiastic Lotus specialists as Sue Miller, Paul Matty, Kelveden Motors et al.

I'd much rather wrestle with the vagaries of an old Elan than those of an old Ferrari - as my near neighbour does. Now he's got some interesting (and expensive!) tales to tell.

[frearther]

It is not unusual in any kind of restoration for the cost of the restoration to far exceed the final value of the car. Especially if it's a "proper" restoration that goes into fine detail and corrects deficiencies that were built into the car at the factory. That's a given - check any classic car magazine.

Given that, and the inherently maintenance-intensive nature of Elans, none of the problems mentioned are particularly surprising. Especially when one bears in mind that these cars are all about the age of my children. And they were not designed to cope with freeways and other demands of modern driving.

We love them because they're British, they're quirky, and they remind us of our younger days (for me, at least). And if they can be used as daily drivers, that's a bonus.

[tower of strength]

It amazes me at how many people "impulse buy" classic/project cars, I have over the years rebuilt several to varying standards and budgets and built some modified cars. having cut my teeth in this way, I still research a new project before buying usually through magasine back issues and through the owners clubs. being able to "google " a particular marques forum is a delight of the internet, yet a couple of friends have ploughed in and bought dodgy cars blind. (wish they had been buyers of some of the creations I have sold in the past )

Even programs like Top Gear have shown the pitfalls of "cheap" supercar ownership, yet folk still chuck thier money away!!

Mark

[worzel]

Hello all- again!

Re my comments about "depressing views".

Just noticed the article in Classics mag by Paul Edwards.

He sums up what I was saying but rather better. For those who haven't/won't read it the gist of his story is- "buy crap then expect it to be crap and don't complain when it doesn't work properly. To ensure reliability go over it completely from front to back- then maintain it. Having unrealistic expectations of what a proper restoration involves usually leads to disillusionment and finally its sale as an unfinished project".

John

[tower of strength]

Hello all- again!

Re my comments about "depressing views".

Just noticed the article in Classics mag by Paul Edwards.

He sums up what I was saying but rather better. For those who haven't/won't read it the gist of his story is- "buy crap then expect it to be crap and don't complain when it doesn't work properly. To ensure reliability go over it completely from front to back- then maintain it. Having unrealistic expectations of what a proper restoration involves usually leads to disillusionment and finally its sale as an unfinished project".

John

Trouble is John, some of the "crap" out there has had obscene amounts of unwisely spent cash thrown at it!!
i love the terms "original chassis in good condition" and "slight micro blistering and cracking" errrr that means "needs ?10K more than I can afford to spend to make good"!!!

Mark

[RotoFlexible]

There is quite a lot of justified bashing of previous owners in this thread. Speaking as my own previous owner (for 40 years), I can sympathize with both sides of that relationship. I have certainly done some ill-advised and poorly executed work over the years. But as my own DPO, I know where the bodies are buried and can exhume them at will. That is what I am trying to do now.
Recently, my car has suffered more from benign neglect (fixing only that which must be fixed) than malfeasance. However, the engine had become distinctly tired and the engine bay was a disgrace. I came close to giving up and selling it, but couldn't bring myself to do it. The only alternative was clear: to spend the time, effort and money to fix it right. (I give a lot of credit to this forum for keeping me on the straight and narrow, by the way.)
Rather than undertake a full restoration, my goal for the winter is to get the powertrain right, from the cylinder head to the rear wheel bearings. Between the forum and several excellent books, I have a wealth of information and resources, and I'm committed to cutting no corners. (Two exceptions: the innards of the gearbox and diff shall remain undisturbed to the extent possible.)
I am also going to clean up, repaint, and rewire the engine compartment. It has been a mess for far too long. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to rewire the horn and headlights with relays last year, and was pleased with the results, so rationalizing and replacing the rest of the wiring should be no problem.
In one way this could be considered a rolling restoration. I prefer to think of it as modular; the powertrain is a pretty big module. Now that I have committed to the project, it is turning out to be a lot of fun, and I look forward to reporting on the results in the spring.

[1964 S1]

LotusElan.net for me has always been encouraging and fun reading, the word depressing never comes to mind. I find it a place for LotusLovers to discuss and solve their problems, not a one unachievable, in an intelligent and frequently humorous fashion.
No need to read between the lines, we all know they're performance oriented dependable old sports cars that drive, well, like no other car of their day, or today. I'll cooly challange ANY car in a slalom and watch the other driver sweat.

[Jolly Jumper]

A few points to consider:

- Don't forget that an internet board is usually the place where people with problems gather, because they hope to find a solution. It is very rare that someone writes a posting saying: My Elan is great and it is running fine! Only bad news are good news.

- The Elan is a car that suffers from neglect. It is typical for many people to leave their car sitting for months, then they jump into it and complain something is not working. In my experience out of 15 years, these cars get better the more you drive them.

- Some Owners may not be interested in driving at all. All they want to do is get the spanners out on the weekend and get their hands oily. That is ok, of course. But it's a different approach.

- Someone complains about 5000 GBP for a proper bare fibreglass respray. Well, what can you say.... 5000 GBP is dirt cheap compared with what other cars need. Body restoration on a old Porsche can easily cost 25.000 GBP, and that does not even include paint. Some basic replacement parts on modern high performance cars can cost enormous amounts of money as well. Everything is getting expensive compared with prices 20 or 30 years ago, it's a fact of life. It is also a fact the Elan is, compared with other quality sports cars, cheap to restore.

And it is a great car. It only needs to be exercised regularly and it should receive maintenance from an expert. Just take the body off the chassis, rebuilt the drivertrain properly, sort out the electrics and away you go. Cosmetics can be dealt with later. Once the basics have been done, the car is reliable and sweet.