Off Topic: Elise

[Martin_StuartUK]

Well, I drove an Elise for the first time today and I am *seriously* disappointed

Took the girlfriend to our local dealership with the intention of simply finding out whether she can get in and out of one (she has a bad back, but as it happens she had less difficulty than me since she is 5'1" and I'm 5'11" - I had to just about bend double with the hood up). Since they had a demonstrator sat there doing nothing, the salesman offered to let me have a spin, and it seemed churlish to refuse.

Yes, the steering is well up to Lotus expectations and the performance is fairly brisk (though it *feels* slower than my Elan simply because it is much quieter and less frenetic), but the gearchange is just plain nasty - the worst change I have experienced in *any* car, ever. In addition it really is very awkward to get in and out of with the hood up (which is a problem because I have to park in tight parking spaces in my office's multi-storey car park & I can see the paintwork on the sills getting scuffed and shabby very quickly from dragging my feet in over them) and the build quality feels just as flimsy as my Elan (I can forgive the Elan, but then it doesn't have to do 15,000 miles a year...).

Having been a Lotus enthusiast since the age of about seven, I had pretty much settled on an Elise as my next daily driver without ever having sat in one, but after today I am seriously considering an MX5 - it is slower, but at least the gearbox works properly, I can get in and out of it, and it doesn't feel as if bits will come off in my hand!

Is it just me, or is the Elise really that bad? Anyone else on the list own an Elise as well as an Elan and would care to give their opinions?

Martin Stuart

[gjz30075]

--- In lotuselan@y..., "Martin Stuart" <m.a.stuart@b...> wrote:


Martin,
I, too, got a chance to drive an Elise. I'm in the US and the car
was a German spec 111S model. Yes, it was brisk and very 'Lotus
like' in all perspectives but the one thing I really disliked was
the gearchange. I'm sure the Europa guys would find it satisfying
but to me (and probably all on this list) nothing matches the
snick/snick action of an Elan gearchange. I don't know if Lotus
improved this or not for the S2, or its as good as it gets for a mid
engine car.

Greg Zelazek
'72 Sprint

[Fred Talmadge]

I guess that explains why I saw a shifter kit for the Elise. Of course if
you want a bad shifter check out a 1960s Porsche or VW. Neutral in the
Elan is tighter than those guys in gear.

Fred

At 01:36 AM 10/21/2002 +0000, Greg Zelazek wrote:

["Peter Boegli"]

Hi Martin

My tuppence worth of 30 years of Elan and 3 years Elise experience: I
understand your disappointment if you want to use an Elise as an everyday
transport: The Elan is much easier to get in and out than an Elise with the
rag top mounted. A German tester once wrote "If you want to get older in
dignity - don't buy an Elise." The Elan has space ample for luggage, much
more than its tiny exterior apperarance shows. The Elises luggage
compartment does work - if you use softbags only. Talking about car parks:
The Elan is decidedly narrower than the Elise making parking certainly
easier.

On the open road or on the race track the picture changes, however. There is
not much difference in straight line performance, comparing an Elan Sprint
71 with a standard (120 BHP) Elise. 0 - 100 MPH: 20 secs for the Elan, 18
secs for the Elise. Brakes are clearly better on the Elise. The Elan shows
some instability under strong braking form say 100 MPH, whereas the Elise
remains rock stable and allows higher deceleration. Regarding the cornering
forces the advantage of the younger car is even higher. I have repeatedly
measured stable cornering at up to 1.2 g transversal acceleration in the
Elise. The Elan is on its limits around 1.0 g. Both measurements were taken
with street-legal racing tires (AVON ACB-10 and Yokohama A-032).

So in a nutshell: Take the Elan to travel _to_ the track, then hop into the
Elise to drive _on_ the track.

Cheers, Peter


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Stuart" <***@***.***>

Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:42 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Off Topic: Elise


Well, I drove an Elise for the first time today and I am *seriously*
disappointed
<snip>

[Dan Luton]

Wow, I never thought I'd see the words "Elise" and "disappointed" in the same sentence. You must be old )


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Freeserve AnyTime, only ?13.99 per month with one month's FREE trial!
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[abstamaria]

Hello Martin,

I have been quite fortunate to have an Elise and also to have had a Miata
(which you are considering as an alternative to the Elise). I have the
following thoughts for you.

The Elise has to be taken in perspective - it is a very precise tool for a
specific purpose and will be a disappointment if viewed in another context,
as you have found out. For general, all-around use, rain or shine, the
Miata wins hands down, specially with a hard top, air-conditioning, power
windows, etc. Being Japanese, it will probably run forever, too. But it is
not as involving as the Elise, at least in my experience.

An old Road & Track or Car & Driver article, reviewing the Elan (an S4 I
recall), said it was the perfect car for the Nurburgring, but asked how many
of us take the Nurburgring to work every day? The Elise is even more
demanding than the Elan.

The girl next door or the exotic dancer? Practicality or true love? Tough
choice, as Peter Egan says. Good luck, Martin.

Regards,

Andres
45/8439
Manila

P.S. It is impossible to get into the Elise with the hood up. Getting out
even more so. The gearchange actually isn't bad, but is not as precise as
the Elan's.

[LotuSport]

As present owner of an Elan and an Esprit, I can surely see where he's
coming from. And as a 57-year-old 6'-3" linebacker-build guy, I can tell
you that you don't _know_ "difficult" when it comes to Elise entry/egress!
8^D

That said, I've driven both S.1 and S.2 (and Exige) Elises and I'll trade
_both_ my Elan and Esprit for one (only if necessary, though). I admit that
it is hard to beat the "toggle switch" shifter of the Ford box (the lever's
directly connected, for heaven's sake!) but the "rubber band" shifting of
other remote gearbox cars is usually easy to overcome with improved bushings
and cable adjustments. The Elise is better than most -- not Honda shifting
quality, I grant -- but not terrible, either.

The first time I drove an Elise, I was straight from a couple of hundred
miles and ten-or-so track laps in my Esprit. The Elise felt crisp by
comparison, and (OH!) the handling -- I was instantly captivated. And my
5'-3/4" non-car-person (now ex-) wife liked the Elise so much that she told
me I could buy one as soon as they were available. I'm still waiting, even
though I no longer need permission.

Best regards,
Bob "Waiting. . ." Metz
______________________________________
***@***.*** (work)
***@***.*** (home)
'89 Esprit Turbo Red/Tan
'70 Elan S.4 SE Butter Yellow

[Fred Talmadge]

Now to push this a bit more off topic...
Another car that I don't see mentioned here as an alternative is the Honda
S2000 A great high reving engine, and probably reliable as any Honda
should be.

Fred T


At 07:31 PM 10/21/2002 +0800, you wrote:

["Brian"]

Hi Martin,

I've got an Elise and have pretty much driven it daily for it's 3yrs ('cept
for a really bad month when it showed it really was made by lotus). Yes,
gearchange is awful compared to the early Elan, but you don't spend that
much time changing gear, do you ? And it does get better with mileage.

You seem very similar to me in that I wanted one as a daily driver even
before I'd sat in one. (to replace an MX5, yes, truly) After I first sat in
one I walked away and my missus was really surprised that I didnt order one,
because I left it over a month for some serious thoughts.

In the end I bought one, and I don't mind saying the first few weeks were a
culture shock. But after a few hundred miles I loved it and never thought of
selling it. The car is modern, great steering and stability, just spoilt by
typical lotus corner-cutting on some of the parts.

I don't know if you were looking at the S1 or S2, the S2 is reputedly easier
to get in but to be honest it's just a knack. Slide the seat back, push
yourself upwards and it's easy - just totally different from any normal car.

I would think if you can live with an Elan, then an elise would be easy.
I've done both as daily cars and certainly my Elan required more tinkering.
Compared with an MX5, if the performance and mid-engined handling isn't a
pull for you, then it's a close call. The MX5 really is a great car, a
painless convertible.

Brian

[Martin_StuartUK]

Good call Fred!

I must admit, I'd let the S2000 slip from my sights, but now you mention it, it may well be the ideal compromise of practicality, performance and a gearshift that doesn't feel as thought it is made from
recycled plastic!

I shall arrange a test drive forthwith...

Thanks

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Talmadge
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Elise OT


Now to push this a bit more off topic...
Another car that I don't see mentioned here as an alternative is the Honda
S2000 A great high reving engine, and probably reliable as any Honda
should be.

Fred T


At 07:31 PM 10/21/2002 +0800, you wrote:

[Martin_StuartUK]

It was an S2 that I drove, Brian, but it was quite a large dealership and I
sat in maybe 5 or 6 other Elises; the gearshift in all (admittedly
stationary) felt exactly the same and equally nasty.

Unfortunately, I *do* spend change gear a lot - the roads around me
(Yorkshire) are pleasantly twisty and hilly and in any case I take quite a
lot of pleasure from being in the optimum gear, heeling and toeing down the
box for corners, that sort of thing, so gearshift quality is up there with
steering and handling (and well above braking) in my list of priorities.

The S2 certainly did seem easier to get in and out of than the S1's I tried,
though I couldn't pin down the reason why.

Mid engined handling I can take or leave - I've owned a couple of
midi-engine cars and driven a lot more (including racers), an what they make
up in sensitivity, they can loose in edginess and unpredictability on the
limit - I simply daren't take quite so many liberties on public roads in
most of them.

I can live with a fairly high degree of impracticality - I ran a Seven as my
only car, year round, for a while a few years ago - but I guess I am only
prepared to tolerate such shortcomings if the dynamic package is right. I am
just a little surprised at how difficult the Elise is in this respect, given
its market - I'm sure you'll agree that in the UK, at least, it is perceived
as being almost mainstream - nothing like as extreme as a Caterham or the
proliferation of 'track day specials' we have over here now.

Thanks to everybody for all the comments on this subject. I know it is OT,
but I specifically wanted the perspective from people who were familiar with
the Elan as a comparison. I think I may arrange to hire an Elise for a
weekend, to see if it gets better with familiarity, but otherwise an MX5 or
S2000 may well be the answer, much as I hate turning my back on Lotus.

Martin Stuart

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <***@***.***>

Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:41 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re : Off Topic, Elise


Hi Martin,

I've got an Elise and have pretty much driven it daily for it's 3yrs ('cept
for a really bad month when it showed it really was made by lotus). Yes,
gearchange is awful compared to the early Elan, but you don't spend that
much time changing gear, do you ? And it does get better with mileage.

You seem very similar to me in that I wanted one as a daily driver even
before I'd sat in one. (to replace an MX5, yes, truly) After I first sat in
one I walked away and my missus was really surprised that I didnt order one,
because I left it over a month for some serious thoughts.

In the end I bought one, and I don't mind saying the first few weeks were a
culture shock. But after a few hundred miles I loved it and never thought of
selling it. The car is modern, great steering and stability, just spoilt by
typical lotus corner-cutting on some of the parts.

I don't know if you were looking at the S1 or S2, the S2 is reputedly easier
to get in but to be honest it's just a knack. Slide the seat back, push
yourself upwards and it's easy - just totally different from any normal car.

I would think if you can live with an Elan, then an elise would be easy.
I've done both as daily cars and certainly my Elan required more tinkering.
Compared with an MX5, if the performance and mid-engined handling isn't a
pull for you, then it's a close call. The MX5 really is a great car, a
painless convertible.

Brian

[Arno Church]

Don't forget the 6 speed gearbox !!!
Arno

Good call Fred!

I must admit, I'd let the S2000 slip from my sights, but now you mention it, it may well be the ideal compromise of practicality, performance and a gearshift that doesn't feel as thought it is made from
recycled plastic!

I shall arrange a test drive forthwith...

Thanks

[Rob_LaMoreaux]

Too bad it is soo overweight.

I can't understsnd how a 2 seat 2.0L car can be much over 2400 lbs. let alone 2800 lbs.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.

[Elan45]

I'll quickly add my 2 cents in here.

I got two laps in an Elise at the Lotus Engineering track day last June. I don't remember the shifter being a problem at all. My biggest problem was the wiper switch was so close to the steering wheel that I turned on the wipers several times returning my hand to the wheel after shifting.

I do remember being less than impressed with the handling, but one must remember that I was climbing out of my Lotus 20/22 FJr and into the Elise. Also, this was a car that had been hammered by lots of test drivers so was farfrom new. I put this into perspective when I drove it and was overall quite pleased. After all, it IS a street car and the 20/22 is not.

This was also the 1st time to even get into an Elise and yes, I did find the wide sills a bit of a problem, but with a little practice, I'm sure I could master it in style, but I'm also Jim Clark size of 5' 8-1/2". It was my wife's 1st viewing of an Elise and she was not impressed with the style, soI don't see one in my immediate future. But I do have a spare S2 Elan title and number plate waiting to make an Elise into a '65 Elan, so I could drive it home. I can always hope.

Roger


As present owner of an Elan and an Esprit, I can surely see where he's
coming from. And as a 57-year-old 6'-3" linebacker-build guy, I can tell
you that you don't _know_ "difficult" when it comes to Elise entry/egress!
8^D

That said, I've driven both S.1 and S.2 (and Exige) Elises and I'll trade
_both_ my Elan and Esprit for one (only if necessary, though). I admit that
it is hard to beat the "toggle switch" shifter of the Ford box (the lever's
directly connected, for heaven's sake!) but the "rubber band" shifting of
other remote gearbox cars is usually easy to overcome with improved bushings
and cable adjustments. The Elise is better than most -- not Honda shifting
quality, I grant -- but not terrible, either.

The first time I drove an Elise, I was straight from a couple of hundred
miles and ten-or-so track laps in my Esprit. The Elise felt crisp by
comparison, and (OH!) the handling -- I was instantly captivated. And my
5'-3/4" non-car-person (now ex-) wife liked the Elise so much that she told
me I could buy one as soon as they were available. I'm still waiting, even
though I no longer need permission.

Best regards,
Bob "Waiting. . ." Metz
______________________________________
***@***.*** (work)
***@***.*** (home)
'89 Esprit Turbo Red/Tan
'70 Elan S.4 SE Butter Yellow












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[Elan45]

I've driven one and the gearbox is a snikable (you know, snik-snik, changedgear) as an Elan/ Ford, but a 6-speed. I'd love to have that box in my Elan. Nice car too, but not in my budget right now.

Roger


Another car that I don't see mentioned here as an alternative is the Honda S2000 A great high reving engine, and probably reliable as any Honda
should be.

Fred T


At 07:31 PM 10/21/2002 +0800, you wrote:











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intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
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This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
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