Sierra (long)

["Paul Savill"]

If the extra cog doesn't interest you, please click here ===> [delete]


Hi coggies

Interesting thread. A five speed option for the +2 has been an ongoing
project with me for years now and some of what follows may be of interest to
you. I use my car through the lanes of Sussex and leave the motorway
network to cars that like going in straight lines (I just deleted a few
examples for fear of reprisals!) However, once in a while, a fast modern
road trip becomes inevitable. That's when I miss a fifth gear. I've made
my feelings known about the Lotus/Maxi box before; I'm not prepared to
sacrifice slick gearshift action for occasional long legged cruising. So
that's out then.

Back in the eighties, a Club Lotus member from NZ (called Murray Valentine
IIRC and if I do, what a good name!) fitted an Alfa105 box to his Elan
Sprint. The ratios are almost exactly the same as the Lotus/Maxi box and,
being all alloy, it was lighter than the standard 2821E (Corsair) four speed
box. Hi Murray! - you still out there??

Anyway, I borrowed a 105 box from a local Alfa dealer by way of a
feasibility study for the +2. In spite of the advantages that Murray
identified (ratios and weight) and the fact that the gearstick was where it
ought to be, I decided against it because...

-Integrated bellhousing would require too much engineering for bolt pattern,
clutch release and starter motor.

-Wacky first motion spline and spigot would require use of the Alfa clutch
and a custom spigot bearing.

-Need to lower engine in spite of which...

-Intrusive selector tower (would be too high behind dash).

-Reputation for weak synchromesh.

And then I stumbled across a Fiat 131 Mirafiori twincam and five speed box
stuffed into a chopped Morris Minor van fitted with a GRP 'shark's nose'
front end (an abberation not entirely pertinent to this story but worth
mentioning all the same Now, in the UK, these cars dissolve when parked
so they're very cheap and used parts seem to be readily available.

So I bought a Fiat box because: It's strong (made in Germany by ZF). It
has a separate bellhousing. It's all alloy. The gear lever is in exactly
the right place. The spline is the same as the Lotus (spooky) so I can use
the original clutch. The spigot is the same as the 2821E. Downside? The
fifth gear is not very long-legged but I don't mind.

Progress so far? I've stripped it down and checked the internals - a new
set of bearings (all standard stuff) should mean the box will outlast me.
The gear set's all nicely assembled and bagged up. Now I need to
manufacture an adaptor to fit Lotus bellhousing to Fiat box and modify an
old propshaft to replace the forward spline with a bolt-up to fit the new
output shaft - I'm also hoping this arrangement will help to locate the
diff. The major headache as I see it will be the speedo-drive gearing. The
plan is to use a Hunter transducer on the gearbox to generate a square wave
and make an adjustable motor drive gizmo that fits directly to the back of
the speedo, so doing away with the cable and angle drive. More later - will
need help on this bit.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has tackled this one. Otherwise
I'll let you know how I get on over the next fifteen years, which is how
long it's going to take given my current workrate.

Watch this space but don't hold your breath

Paul

The first person to claim 'nothing happens when I click here' gets a
biscuit.

[Steve Crook]

Paul
I have also looked at the Fiat gearbox and after borrowing one and
offering it up to a bare chassis the fit would very tight around the gear
lever and the ratio's are not that great either, 1st gear in particular
being very low (like the Alfa box). The low 1st might be OK in a Plus2 but
the Elan can easily pull the normal first gear and the ratio's are pretty
good all through the range. I have heard a rumour that the Maserati Bi Turbo
gearbox fits easily, all I know is that is made by ZF so it may not be
unique to Maserati, perhaps someone has more info on this or access to a
gearbox for checking the possibility of all our wishes being met for an Elan
that can be driven at indecent speeds at decent revs.
Keep looking everyone, there must be something out there that fits
without redesigning the chassis.

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Savill <***@***.***>
To: lotuselan <***@***.***>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 14:04
Subject: [LotusElan.net] 5-speed gearbox - was Sierra (long)

[Arno Church]

Has anybody had a look at the BMW 3 series Getrag box?
Arno

[Elan45]

I have wondered about the TR7-TR8 5 spd Getrag box but have never been able to even see one. The TR 4spd was totally different and junk, but the 5-spd is supposedly strong.


Has anybody had a look at the BMW 3 series Getrag box?
Arno

[Frank Howard]

Paul,

Some information you may like to know concerning your 131 gearbox. I sold
Fiats from 1976 through 1978. My parents owned a 1975 131 and a 1979 Brava.
As I remember, there was a safety recall on the 131 box. Apparently the last
bearing in the rear of the box was not getting enough lubrication and
occasionally, it would seize, causing the rear wheels to lock up. This was
remedied by fitting a redesigned rear housing to the box. Your box may or
may not have this redesigned housing. Just thought you'd like to know.

Frank Howard
Minneapolis
71 Elan S4 SE
74 Europa TC Special

["Philippe DEMEYER&qu]

The TR7-TR8 gearbox from the Rover SD1
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Sieling
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] 5-speed gearbox - was Sierra (long)


I have wondered about the TR7-TR8 5 spd Getrag box but have never been able to even see one. The TR 4spd was totally different and junk, but the 5-spd is supposedly strong.


Has anybody had a look at the BMW 3 series Getrag box?
Arno

[ozone.breath]

Arno wrote:


Of course you mean the 5 speed ones, including the 235/5,
245/4, or 245/10 units...

Yes, I've looked at them. Seemingly similar Getrag 'boxes
also came in Jensen Healeys, and Opels. The Jensen 5 speed
'box has some fairly nice ratios too:

3.370 2.160 1.580 1.240 1.000

These are the same ratios that came on the close ratio 235/5,
which was an option on 2002s (many of them came on 2002
turbos). Is the BMW 235/5 exactly the same as the Jensen 5
speed? Dunno; I was never able to verify it.

(Note the direct drive 5th... a significant advantage in
my assesment)

To my knowledge, though, all of these various Getrag 'boxes
have integral bellhousings. Anyone know different?

Regards,
Erik Berg
Los Angeles

[ozone.breath]

Roger Sieling wrote:

Philippe Demeyer replied:

Yes I agree Philippe, the (late) TR7 and TR8 gearbox was
also used on some of the later V8 powered Rovers.

If memory serves it is not a Getrag gearbox at all, but
rather a Borg-Warner T5. Could someone verify?

Anyway I've had a T5 sitting next to a stock type 26
frame. There is no way it'll fit. Not a prayer.

Regards,
Erik Berg
Los Angeles

[ozone.breath]

Tom you wrote:

Tom, what do you know about the Caterham 6 speed? Who are
producing this thing? Is it the same unit as the (gulp,
big $$$) Quaife 6 speed?

How long is it, from bell housing / engine face to shift
lever?

Regards,
Erik Berg
Los Angeles

[johnc]

I think the Getrag that would be of interest is the 265 which is a 5
speed overdrive unit with a separate bell housing. They are widely availabe
and reasonable priced. For got the number, but the 5 speed non-overdrive unit
is quite pricey.

Someone give me the dimension of the lotus tranny and I will put together a
comparison with the Getray 265.

johnc

On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, you wrote:

John Connin, Longwood, FL. aka <***@***.***>

[tmr]

Erik:

It is allegedly produced by Caterham, though most likely a supplier
does it for them. I don't know anything about the Quaife, so I
cannot say if it is similar.

I don't know the dimensions, but you might email them and ask. Look
at the Caterham links page for the addresses of Caterham USA and UK:

http://freespace.virgin.net/alex.wong/catlinks.htm

I do remember seeing a price for it on one of their websites (Rocky
Mountain, I think) of about $5,000! This was for a ZETEC engine vs.
about $2,000 for a Sierra 5-speed. Ouch!

Tom Roberds
69 S4

[Esprit2]

Arno,

That would be the Getrag 265. It was the 5-speed Lotus used in the 2.2
versions of the Elite and Eclat. The shift motion is a little course/
notchy and the gear ratios are not as perfect for the 907 (which you don't
care about) as either the Lotus-BL 5-speed box used in the S1
Elite/Eclat/Elan or the Toyota W58 Supra box that was used in the Excel.

The Getrag 265 is considerably larger than the Lotus-BL box. It would
certainly have the guts to stand up to a Twink... it would probably be
overkill in the sense that you would be adding more weight than needed to a
sensitive, lightweight car.

Regards,
Tim Engel


-----Original Message-----
From: Arno Church <***@***.***>
To: ***@***.*** <***@***.***>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2000 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] 5-speed gearbox - was Sierra (long)

[ozone.breath]

Hey Paul, I like your greeting:




First, regarding Alfa 'boxes:


Thanks for that! I heard about an article on this, in one of the
Kiwi car mags. Someone was going to look it up for me, but he couldn't
find it. I think it may even have been written by the fitter himself.
Any of our resident Kiwis got a copy of this article?


Great information, thanks! But maybe my brain needs recalibration,
because I thought there was a version of the old Alfa gearbox with
a separate bellhousing. And I'll admit that I don't even remember
for sure what a 105 is. Isn't that the same as the old Spyder /
Giulia / Berlina family? Is the 105 gearbox case different from
the older 101 series 5 speed?

I like the close ratio gear set, the one that comes in the GTA 'box.
After-market Alfisti are reproducing it. But if all the 101/105
cases have integral bellhousings, then I guess my parade has been
rained upon.

OK, now FIAT 'boxes:

Sounds great, so far. Indeed I'm not sure whether (for me) your downside
would be a disadvantage.

Spyder have used ZF 5-speeds in customer 26/36/45s using their frame
conversion. Could this be the same unit? Spyder told me their ZF
5 speed was out of an English GM (Bedford) van.

What *are* the ratios on the FIAT 131?

Regards,
Erik Berg
Los Angeles

[Arno Church]

Eric Berg wrote:
Tom, what do you know about the Caterham 6 speed? Who are
producing this thing? Is it the same unit as the (gulp,
big $$$) Quaife 6 speed?

How long is it, from bell housing / engine face to shift
lever?

I have investigated this a bit until I came to the price- 2700UKP
(multiply that by our exchange rate of 10.9 and you know why the investigation stopped
My knowledge of the box is :
It is a bespoke Caterham box made by an experienced and reliable supplier
It is based on the Sierra 5 speed box and the size is very similar
It has a loose ali bellhousing and there are a few varieties that will fit x-flow, t/c, zetec and obviously the Rover K series
The main and extension casing is cast in ali
It is a c/r box with 6th gear at 1:1 - first gear is under 3:1 ,could even be 2.5:1 so it is real close
It has the normal shift pattern i.e double H but I believe a sequential shift is or will be available

Arno

[Arno Church]

Tim Engel wrote

(snip)
That would be the Getrag 265

or the Toyota W58 Supra box that was used in the Excel.
(snip)

Thanks Tim, Although very scarce in our neck of the woods
that Toyota 5 speed box is rather nice and small
Arno