How to Holt it together

[donselan]

Can anyone describe the proper technique to join the exhaust pipe to the cast exhaust manifold using Holt's Firegum? I'm not sure if it is applied to the mating surface of the manifold and inside of the flare on the exhaust pipe or if it is applied inside the clamp that holds it all together. How thick should it be applied? Any tricks of the trade that make the job easier?
Thanks

Don Fysh S3/5607 FHC

[donselan]

Maybe it was my bad pun but I didn't get any responses to this
request. I am getting a lot of engine fumes into the cockp[it which
I need to eliminate. I would appreciate any help that anyone can
offer,
Thanks
Don Fysh

--- In ***@***.***, "Don Fysh" <dfysh@p...> wrote:

it is applied to the mating surface of the manifold and inside of the
flare on the exhaust pipe or if it is applied inside the clamp that
holds it all together. How thick should it be applied? Any tricks
of the trade that make the job easier?

[starsign]

"Don Fysh" <***@***.***> wrote:



I think that you should smear the firegum on the mating surfaces and also
inside the clamp. Tighten up and leave overnoght to harden, or run engine to
allow heat to set compound. From memory, there should be an exhaust mounting
bracket adjacent to the gearbox.

Having said all that, I discarded my cast iron manifold when the mating
flange disintegrated. If you are tempted to do this, beware that finding a
fabricated manifold that fits can be a nightmare.

Richard

--

[sprinterdave]

In message <8mh35m+***@***.***>, Don Fysh <***@***.***> writes

gear lever. if this is perished or as is more likely to have a split in
it fumes can enter the car.
Dave

--
David Shiers

[gobw2]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 13:00:38 -0000 "Don Fysh" <***@***.***> writes:

[gobw2]

Don, with good materials, the clamp should draw the bellmouth on the
exhaust pipe tight against the cast manifold bevel, slightly deforming
the pipe to make a good seal. If you are reusing an old, corroded pipe,
things get a little more difficult. I would clean up both surfaces and
apply some lapping compound until I had at least 1/8 inch clean band on
both. With a good clamp and a bit of high temp compound ( to ease future
dissasembly) you should be set. I know - this means removing manifold.
Holts firegum and the stuff they use in muffler shops are temporary
repairs. Sodium Metasilicate has good heat resistance, but absorbs water
and deteriorates over time. If fumes are coming in, you may find other
leakage problems. Is there any leakage between manifold and head? How
about that little resonator - it likes to pinhole on the bottom along the
edge. George

On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 13:00:38 -0000 "Don Fysh" <***@***.***> writes:

[donselan]

Richard, David and George
Thanks for your suggestions. I didn't think of a problem with the
resonator. I haven't detected any leakage there but accessibility is not
great so maybe it is happening but hard to detect. I am considering getting
rid of the cast manifold by switching to a header system. That would get
rid of the manifold joint and the resonator and 2 potential leak sources.

I do have a new rubber boot (gaiter?) around the shifter so that shouldn't
be a path for fumes to enter the cockpit. Besides, I think it is safer to
tighten up the sources of the fumes so that my health is not affected.

One potential source is the crankcase breather vent. I have just done a
compression test and found that I have to replace my rings. Possibly the
blow-by finds its way out there.

Thanks
Don

[gobw2]

*****AGREE - besides, any leaking exhaust fumes will still get you when
stuck in traffic***

Don - My crancase breather vent goes into the back of the airbox -
behind #4. My S3 is 6078, but I think they were routing this way even on
S2's. Blowby gets recycled into the engine. You should NOT get any blowby
fumes with engine running Did someone modify yours?



It may help to determine what you smell- - if it is blowby, solution may
be easy - maybe the rubber hose from the engine to the airbox is leaking
or has cracked, or the plastic oil return piece back there between the
bottom of the head and the block? How about the oil cap - try bending
the tabs in a bit to make it tighter. One other thing - small, but -
the dipstick - is folded over piece of metal - terrible seal. I cleaned
mine, made a gasket for it out of sealer, sealing between folded over
metal pieces and making a cap so seals in fill tube. ( I did this to
reduce oil seapage at high rpm's and keep dirt out) if you have a lot of
blowby, some would come out here, and you might be able to smell it.

pipe or something heavy so you build up a few pounds backpressure. I do
not secure it, just in case I forget it is there, don't want to build
high pressures - That way, if engine is revved, pressure pushes piece
out. Now - check exhaust - you will HEAR leaks, can feel gas blowing
out leaks with back of your hand. If you are really in doubt - where
you can't put your hand, a little oil or kerosene in intake will make
smoke, whick will make leaks obvious.

A little detective work, and you Will find that leak(s) . Regards, George

[donselan]

George
I disconnected the exhaust system today and found clear evidence of leakage
at the clamp connection between the cast manifold and the exhaust pipe. The
surfaces are very rough and I'm not sure I could lap them as you suggested
to get a good seal. Tomorrow I will check the cost of a header system to
eliminate this joint. This clamp arrangement doesn't seem to me to be very
effective, even if Holt's Firegum is used to help make the seal. Anyway I
need a good excuse to get a header system!!

On my S3, #5607, the block has a breather connection to the head, just
above the fuel pump, between #3 and 4, (part# 026E 0034, "Breather Tube,
head to block"). The head has a rubber breather vent at the back right
side. This is a rubber elbow which is open to the engine compartment. In
the catalog it is part #026E 0322, "Breather Elbow, road draft tube". It
does not go to the airbox, just open to the engine compartment. My airbox
does not have an available connection for this. The catalog also show an
alternative "Breather grommet, crankcase recirculation" which I assume is
for a later model, perhaps this change was made between 5607 and 6078. I
will check with Bean and/or Ray at RD Enterprises tomorrow to see if I can
retrofit.

thanks for your comments.
Don

[gobw2]

****

On Sun, 6 Aug 2000 22:35:27 -0500 "Don Fysh" <***@***.***> writes:

close to work properly - works great with all new parts, though. : > )

for you.


maybe some were set up for potential Calif. Sale.


oil fumes and runs a bit different than other s. If I were to change,
would run a hose from breather elbow to FRONT of airbox at inlet hose
area. then all cyl's get same. The engine will not run as clean, but
your lungs will be better off. Talk to Bean & RD about something better
than stock conical screen inside of tube for oil mist recovery. American
cars of late 1960's - early 70's had several methods of coalescing the
oil droplets. GM had an external can with a plastic mesh like brillo pad
inside. It was very effective. I used one for a 1970 Cadillac -Olds -
Buick V8 because the inlet and outlet fit my existing holes, and the
blowby on normal 454, 472 CID engines would be far more than my engine
would produce,even with very bad rings.
My can is shot now, so I will be looking for something better too.
George

[Elan45]

Even w/ the rubber elbow, there is supposed to be a metal tube about 12 inches long, which carries the fumes down below the car. I thought these stopped during the Series 2 production.

Roger


I disconnected the exhaust system today and found clear evidence of leakage
at the clamp connection between the cast manifold and the exhaust pipe. The
surfaces are very rough and I'm not sure I could lap them as you suggested
to get a good seal. Tomorrow I will check the cost of a header system to
eliminate this joint. This clamp arrangement doesn't seem to me to be very
effective, even if Holt's Firegum is used to help make the seal. Anyway I
need a good excuse to get a header system!!

On my S3, #5607, the block has a breather connection to the head, just
above the fuel pump, between #3 and 4, (part# 026E 0034, "Breather Tube,
head to block"). The head has a rubber breather vent at the back right
side. This is a rubber elbow which is open to the engine compartment. In
the catalog it is part #026E 0322, "Breather Elbow, road draft tube". It
does not go to the airbox, just open to the engine compartment. My airbox
does not have an available connection for this. The catalog also show an
alternative "Breather grommet, crankcase recirculation" which I assume is
for a later model, perhaps this change was made between 5607 and 6078. I
will check with Bean and/or Ray at RD Enterprises tomorrow to see if I can
retrofit.

thanks for your comments.
Don

[donselan]

Roger,
I didn't see anything like a metal tube in my workshop manual or in Bean's
catalog but that does make sense. I like the idea of moving the the fumes
down below the car. Ever since I got the car my wife has complained of
fumes on the passenger side. On one road trip she even wore a piece of
orange peel over her nose to mask the smell (and to make her point in
dramatic fashion!!). The
alternative might be to try to plumb up a recirculation to the airbox but I
don't want to mess with that right now. Maybe if I see orange peels again I
will think harder about it.
Thanks
Don

[elancoupe]

Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Re: How to Holt it together



My car had this "road tube" setup on it when I bought it. Yes, it will take
the fumes under the car. Yes, it will no longer vent oily fumes into your
airbox, and Yes, it will coat the underside of your car with an oily
ilm( as if we don't have that anyway). I did not like either of the setups,
and have vented all of my breaters into a catch can.

Mike

[donselan]

Mike
Can you describe this catch can so I can try to duplicate? Is it a stock
item from some other car? Where did you mount it? How do you plumb it? Is
this something like George described with a wire mesh pad inside to coalesce
the oil droplets?
Thanks
Don

[Elan45]

Don,

I think I have one of those tubes in my collection, which you could copy, if you like. Since both of my earliest cars are apart, it may be for one of them or may be from one of the parts collections of others I've bought. I did have one of the elbows, because I used it in the "All Rubber" parts ID contest I put on for the last LOG in Cleveland. That makes me think I must have the tube also, and eleminates it coming from my S2 parts car, since it was fire damaged. If you want to borrow it or want dimensions, please keep reminding me, since I am busy trying to get my 20/22 to Watkins Glen, and my mind isn't what it used to be.

Roger


I didn't see anything like a metal tube in my workshop manual or in Bean's
catalog but that does make sense. I like the idea of moving the the fumes
down below the car. Ever since I got the car my wife has complained of
fumes on the passenger side. On one road trip she even wore a piece of
orange peel over her nose to mask the smell (and to make her point in
dramatic fashion!!). The
alternative might be to try to plumb up a recirculation to the airbox but I
don't want to mess with that right now. Maybe if I see orange peels again I
will think harder about it.
Thanks
Don