Lotus Elan

Seat belt choice

PostPost by: type36lotus » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:39 am

As I have removed my roll bar I am now in need of replacements for
the 3-point retractable (no room for the retracting mechanism).
Choices are 3-point fixed or 4-point fixed. And here are links to
the choices.

4-point http://www.andoauto.com/4point.htm

Pluses: buckle release will be easy to get to. Looks cool. All
belts are adjustable. Minuses: All belts are adjustable, I will
have to train every passenger how to properly tighten it. No way at
all for me to reach the parking brake.

3-point http://www.andoauto.com/replacement.htm

3-point pluses: it leaves me a way to reach over with my right had
to pull the parking brake (however feeble it might be), less
training on how to use a manual seat belt. Minus; to get good
crossover from the shoulder part I need to adjust the buckle right
against the center possibly restricting it's release.

The buckle end needs to length adjustable to allow for the seat to
move. The shoulder end is of course pretty much always adjustable.
The Andover 3-points are the only 3-points I have found that allow
adjustment of both belts. The 3-point fixed I now have installed,
do not, therefore limiting the movement and position of the seats.
These will be eBay'ed when replaced.

I have mounting points available for either 3-point or 4-point
already in place.

This wise group's opinions are desired. And of course what color
(for the 4-point) for my BRG Elan? I say red even though I think I
will clash!

Mike Geiger
66 S3 Coupe'
Mike Geiger
66 S3 Coupe', no more :-(
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PostPost by: tvacc » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:53 am

I have installed all sorts of harnesses in my Elans and my Seven



The only .and I repeat only..safe set up is the stock unit but not that
great.or a set of 6 points.with a crotch strap that you attach to the same
place as the lap anchors.and you actually SIT on the crotch belt.and it
attaches to buckle..



I have a set in my Seven.if you want pictures. I have 4 point in my
Elan..and I am always afraid of submarining under the belt.I am sure I
would..



Tony V



_____

From: Michael Geiger [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:39 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Seat belt choice




As I have removed my roll bar I am now in need of replacements for
the 3-point retractable (no room for the retracting mechanism).
Choices are 3-point fixed or 4-point fixed. And here are links to
the choices.

4-point http://www.andoauto.com/4point.htm

Pluses: buckle release will be easy to get to. Looks cool. All
belts are adjustable. Minuses: All belts are adjustable, I will
have to train every passenger how to properly tighten it. No way at
all for me to reach the parking brake.

3-point http://www.andoauto.com/replacement.htm

3-point pluses: it leaves me a way to reach over with my right had
to pull the parking brake (however feeble it might be), less
training on how to use a manual seat belt. Minus; to get good
crossover from the shoulder part I need to adjust the buckle right
against the center possibly restricting it's release.

The buckle end needs to length adjustable to allow for the seat to
move. The shoulder end is of course pretty much always adjustable.
The Andover 3-points are the only 3-points I have found that allow
adjustment of both belts. The 3-point fixed I now have installed,
do not, therefore limiting the movement and position of the seats.
These will be eBay'ed when replaced.

I have mounting points available for either 3-point or 4-point
already in place.

This wise group's opinions are desired. And of course what color
(for the 4-point) for my BRG Elan. I say red even though I think I
will clash!

Mike Geiger
66 S3 Coupe'









To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

CopyrightC LotusElan.net and the author:
Tony Vaccaro
http://www.lotusowners.com
LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
Drive Fast Take Chances
71 Spyder Elan, ElanGTS, 93 Caterham, 05 Elise,
99 Elise190, 91 M100 Elan, 74 Europa, 72 Europa JPS #15, 68 Elan Coupe RHD
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PostPost by: lgsamson » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:02 am

Have you considered duct tape?

Michael Geiger wrote:

As I have removed my roll bar I am now in need of replacements for
the 3-point retractable (no room for the retracting mechanism).
Choices are 3-point fixed or 4-point fixed. And here are links to
the choices.

4-point http://www.andoauto.com/4point.htm

Pluses: buckle release will be easy to get to. Looks cool. All
belts are adjustable. Minuses: All belts are adjustable, I will
have to train every passenger how to properly tighten it. No way at
all for me to reach the parking brake.

3-point http://www.andoauto.com/replacement.htm

3-point pluses: it leaves me a way to reach over with my right had
to pull the parking brake (however feeble it might be), less
training on how to use a manual seat belt. Minus; to get good
crossover from the shoulder part I need to adjust the buckle right
against the center possibly restricting it's release.

The buckle end needs to length adjustable to allow for the seat to
move. The shoulder end is of course pretty much always adjustable.
The Andover 3-points are the only 3-points I have found that allow
adjustment of both belts. The 3-point fixed I now have installed,
do not, therefore limiting the movement and position of the seats.
These will be eBay'ed when replaced.

I have mounting points available for either 3-point or 4-point
already in place.

This wise group's opinions are desired. And of course what color
(for the 4-point) for my BRG Elan? I say red even though I think I
will clash!

Mike Geiger
66 S3 Coupe'










To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html



Yahoo! Groups Links










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PostPost by: type36lotus » Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:53 pm

Tony,

That is the concern I had with the 3-point retractables. The
retractor pulled the buckle just about to my sternum. Submarine, you
bet. The static belts at least lay somewhat low, but not really low
enough to be fully effective, but probably at the same point as the
lap only. Do you feel that lap only is better?

Mike G

--- In ***@***.***, "Tony Vaccaro" <[email protected]> wrote:
..and I am always afraid of submarining under the belt.
Mike Geiger
66 S3 Coupe', no more :-(
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PostPost by: gjz30075 » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:52 pm

--- In ***@***.***, "Michael Geiger" <[email protected]>
wrote:

As I have removed my roll bar I am now in need of replacements for
the 3-point retractable (no room for the retracting mechanism).

Mike,
I used the Willans 4 point in my Sprint but be careful of the model
type. I had the adjusters down by the fixing points. Really stupid
and worthless. My friend had his up by the buckle but we both find
that tightening the shoulder straps pulls up too much on the lap belt
and it ends up in your stomach.

As Tony suggested, get a crotch strap to keep that from happening.

Greg Z.
'72 sprint, but back to Andover three point retractables.
Greg Z
45/0243K Sprint
36/5727 pre airflow coupe
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PostPost by: tvacc » Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:24 pm

Sometimes..I think the lap is better.



We just drove my newly reaquired Elan cross country and years ago I had
installed some Schroth belts.with both lap and shoulder belts. This was
before put the 6 points in the Seven.



On the way cross country I loosened up the shoulder belts because the lap
belt kept riding up. I have no doubt that had we got in to an accident, we
would have submarined under those.



After driving the Seven for the past 6 years.with the crotch belt correctly
installed.I felt very unsafe in the Elan, using the lap and shoulder
combination. I plan to try and put the originals back in..or maybe some
Caterham belts..6 point



Tony V



_____

From: Michael Geiger [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:53 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Seat belt choice




Tony,

That is the concern I had with the 3-point retractables. The
retractor pulled the buckle just about to my sternum. Submarine, you
bet. The static belts at least lay somewhat low, but not really low
enough to be fully effective, but probably at the same point as the
lap only. Do you feel that lap only is better?

Mike G

--- In ***@***.***, "Tony Vaccaro" <[email protected]> wrote:
..and I am always afraid of submarining under the belt.








To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

CopyrightC LotusElan.net and the author:
Tony Vaccaro
http://www.lotusowners.com
LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
Drive Fast Take Chances
71 Spyder Elan, ElanGTS, 93 Caterham, 05 Elise,
99 Elise190, 91 M100 Elan, 74 Europa, 72 Europa JPS #15, 68 Elan Coupe RHD
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PostPost by: Rob_LaMoreaux » Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:25 pm

4-Point - Don't!

But if you insist you can have my black ones. I just use the original belts
that have been rewebbed even though the buckles are not the safest.

Just make sure you find some way to provide slack in the shoulder harness.
Vintage racing groups do this by folding over the shoulder belts and then
duct taping the folds together so the belt unfolds on impact.

Really though there is no way to keep a 4-point harness low enough on an
Elan. You might be able to add new lap belt mounting points but that is
questionable. Plus with the later high backed seats a 4 point harness is
around the shoulders not over the shoulders so the shoulder belts don't
work.

The 3 point is the best way to go unless you go to 5 or 6 point belts,
although I am not sure how you would mount the 5th and/or 6th pieces. Even
with the 3 point the mounting location for the lap belt is too far back to
optimal unless you have real long legs. So make sure the shoulder harness
has slack to make sure you fold across the lap belt nothave the lap belt cut
through your stomach.

My cousin does crash tests for testing seats and belts and they had problems
with the results when they had the shoulder belt tight. It seems the dummy
or cadaver would not fold right and there would be more damage. They now
make sure that the shoulder belt has the proper fist width of slack across
the chest.

Go with the 3-point system.

Rob LaMoreaux

MTS Systems Corp.
Powertrain technology Division
4622 Runway Blvd.
Ann Arbor, MI 48108
734-822-9696
Fax 734-973-1103
Main Desk 734-973-1111
www.mtspt.com
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Home email: ***@***.***
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PostPost by: ddddumas » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:24 pm

--- In ***@***.***, "Michael Geiger" <[email protected]>
wrote:

As I have removed my roll bar I am now in need of replacements for
the 3-point retractable (no room for the retracting mechanism).
Choices are...

I've happily been using 3" wide Simpson racing lap belts, without
crotch straps, for years, and have never had the feeling I'd ever
submarine. I bought the shoulder harnesses sets at the same time,
but thought not to install them - without a roll bar it seems the
shoulder harness would absolutely guarantee that you would skin your
head in a roll-over.
ddddumas
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PostPost by: Evan Carpenter-Crawford » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:48 pm

The only .and I repeat only..safe set up is the stock unit but not that
great.or a set of 6 points.with a crotch strap that you attach to the same
place as the lap anchors.and you actually SIT on the crotch belt.and it
attaches to buckle..

I have a set in my Seven.if you want pictures. I have 4 point in my
Elan..and I am always afraid of submarining under the belt.I am sure I
would..

Tony V

Tony,
This is not entirely correct. The belts in a 5 or 6 point harness cannot
eliminate the forces that produce submarining. The transfer of mass still
occurs- albeit to al lesser extent.
In the dynamics of a crash the most effective preventative measure for
submarining, not respective of belt configuration, is to increase the
incline of the seat pan.
Submarining is set in motion by an unimpeded horizontal sliding of the
drivers lower mass accompanied by the fixation of the upper body by the
shoulder belt(s). In order to prevent submarining the drivers mass must be
located top and bottom. This can be done by increasing degrees with a
3,4,5,or 6 point harness. It can also be accomplished by loading that mass
into a surface that will counteract its motion, or better yet a combination
of the two approaches. Additionally, a 5 or 6 point harness will locate
the driver with minimal excursion - BUT - the loads on the belts will be
significantly higher than if the harness is used in conjunction with an
inclined seat pan.

Been there - crash tested that. The dummy died of internal injuries.
Period.

Bottom line - these are old cars, and the belts they came with (while better
than nothing) are still 40 years behind the current understanding of crash
dynamics.
You have to do your own research and make your own decisions on safety.

Please drive safety, the world needs more Lotus fans...
-E
1969 FHC 8624
Evan Carpenter Crawford
1969 FHC 8624
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PostPost by: "Roger Sieling" » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:27 pm

Unfortunately, "crash dynamics" in 90% of the new vehicles on the road is spelled "air bags". Not much of that knowledge can be retrofitted!

>> ***@***.*** 11/2/04 1:50:37 PM >>>

The only .and I repeat only..safe set up is the stock unit but not that
great.or a set of 6 points.with a crotch strap that you attach to the same
place as the lap anchors.and you actually SIT on the crotch belt.and it
attaches to buckle..

I have a set in my Seven.if you want pictures. I have 4 point in my
Elan..and I am always afraid of submarining under the belt.I am sure I
would..

Tony V

Tony,
This is not entirely correct. The belts in a 5 or 6 point harness cannot
eliminate the forces that produce submarining. The transfer of mass still
occurs- albeit to al lesser extent.
In the dynamics of a crash the most effective preventative measure for
submarining, not respective of belt configuration, is to increase the
incline of the seat pan.
Submarining is set in motion by an unimpeded horizontal sliding of the
drivers lower mass accompanied by the fixation of the upper body by the
shoulder belt(s). In order to prevent submarining the drivers mass must be
located top and bottom. This can be done by increasing degrees with a
3,4,5,or 6 point harness. It can also be accomplished by loading that mass
into a surface that will counteract its motion, or better yet a combination
of the two approaches. Additionally, a 5 or 6 point harness will locate
the driver with minimal excursion - BUT - the loads on the belts will be
significantly higher than if the harness is used in conjunction with an
inclined seat pan.

Been there - crash tested that. The dummy died of internal injuries.
Period.

Bottom line - these are old cars, and the belts they came with (while better
than nothing) are still 40 years behind the current understanding of crash
dynamics.
You have to do your own research and make your own decisions on safety.

Please drive safety, the world needs more Lotus fans...
-E
1969 FHC 8624






To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html



Yahoo! Groups Links










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PostPost by: tvacc » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:44 pm

So I guess the trick is to not get hit.



I have never really felt safe in any of my old Lotus cars..so that is the
price we pay to have fun with our old cars..



Tony V



_____

From: Evan C [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 1:51 PM
To: lotus elan newsgroup
Subject: [LotusElan.net] RE: Seat belt choice



The only .and I repeat only..safe set up is the stock unit but not that
great.or a set of 6 points.with a crotch strap that you attach to the same
place as the lap anchors.and you actually SIT on the crotch belt.and it
attaches to buckle..

I have a set in my Seven.if you want pictures. I have 4 point in my
Elan..and I am always afraid of submarining under the belt.I am sure I
would..

Tony V

Tony,
This is not entirely correct. The belts in a 5 or 6 point harness cannot
eliminate the forces that produce submarining. The transfer of mass still
occurs- albeit to al lesser extent.
In the dynamics of a crash the most effective preventative measure for
submarining, not respective of belt configuration, is to increase the
incline of the seat pan.
Submarining is set in motion by an unimpeded horizontal sliding of the
drivers lower mass accompanied by the fixation of the upper body by the
shoulder belt(s). In order to prevent submarining the drivers mass must be
located top and bottom. This can be done by increasing degrees with a
3,4,5,or 6 point harness. It can also be accomplished by loading that mass
into a surface that will counteract its motion, or better yet a combination
of the two approaches. Additionally, a 5 or 6 point harness will locate
the driver with minimal excursion - BUT - the loads on the belts will be
significantly higher than if the harness is used in conjunction with an
inclined seat pan.

Been there - crash tested that. The dummy died of internal injuries.
Period.

Bottom line - these are old cars, and the belts they came with (while better
than nothing) are still 40 years behind the current understanding of crash
dynamics.
You have to do your own research and make your own decisions on safety.

Please drive safety, the world needs more Lotus fans...
-E
1969 FHC 8624





To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html

Copyright) LotusElan.net and the author:
Tony Vaccaro
http://www.lotusowners.com
LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York)
Drive Fast Take Chances
71 Spyder Elan, ElanGTS, 93 Caterham, 05 Elise,
99 Elise190, 91 M100 Elan, 74 Europa, 72 Europa JPS #15, 68 Elan Coupe RHD
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:33 pm

Being a left leg BK (below the knee) amputee and 5 ft. 7in. tall, I
need to keep the seat fairly close to the front so that I am assured
that I disengage the clutch completely. The seat is kept one notch
back and in my old S4 with the 3 point mount the belt would ride up
to my belly button. This is a very uncomfortable feeling and when I
finished my S2 I just left the belts out. I have worn seatbelts since
I started driving 34 years ago but I don't feel safe with them on in
the Elan. The 3 point belt is the WORST design I have ever seen.
Unless you keep are able to keep the seat all the way back I think
they are more dangerous than not wearing them at all. Lap belts would
be better than the three point, the four point is no different so I
guess that leaves only 5 and 6 point systems, and they are some what
unrealistic for a trip to the store for a loaf of bread.

Gary

Ready-fire, aim!
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PostPost by: type36lotus » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:22 am

Tony,

I agree. As I liken to the same risk level as riding a motorcycle.
The only difference being you get less wet when it rains.

Mike G.

--- In ***@***.***, "Tony Vaccaro" <[email protected]> wrote:
So I guess the trick is to not get hit.



I have never really felt safe in any of my old Lotus cars..so that
is the

price we pay to have fun with our old cars..



Tony V
Mike Geiger
66 S3 Coupe', no more :-(
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PostPost by: type36lotus » Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:32 am

The steering shaft scares me enough to use a seat belt, which means
3-point minimum (which has been my choice 2 times, going on 3 now).
Even though the mounting points reduce the effectiveness and the
safety of the belts I still more comfortable with them than
without. For me it comes down to I'd rather take the risk by
staying in the car then being pummeled against the steering shaft or
ejected into oncoming traffic.

Mike "Don't eject me please" :-0

--- In ***@***.***, "garyeanderson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

Being a left leg BK (below the knee) amputee and 5 ft. 7in.
tall, I

need to keep the seat fairly close to the front so that I am
assured

that I disengage the clutch completely. The seat is kept one notch
back and in my old S4 with the 3 point mount the belt would ride
up

to my belly button. This is a very uncomfortable feeling and when
I

finished my S2 I just left the belts out. I have worn seatbelts
since

I started driving 34 years ago but I don't feel safe with them on
in

the Elan. The 3 point belt is the WORST design I have ever seen.
Unless you keep are able to keep the seat all the way back I think
they are more dangerous than not wearing them at all. Lap belts
would

be better than the three point, the four point is no different so
I

guess that leaves only 5 and 6 point systems, and they are some
what

unrealistic for a trip to the store for a loaf of bread.

Gary

Ready-fire, aim!
Mike Geiger
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PostPost by: elansprint71 » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:58 am

Gary,
I agree that the standard 3 point belt is uncomfortable- I am six foot with35" inside leg (hey, I found an excuse to get my vital statistics on Elan.net!), so I have the seat almost as far back as it goes and STILL the lap belt and buckle go across the belly button.

Cheers.

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: garyeanderson
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] RE: Seat belt choice



Being a left leg BK (below the knee) amputee and 5 ft. 7in. tall, I
need to keep the seat fairly close to the front so that I am assured
that I disengage the clutch completely. The seat is kept one notch
back and in my old S4 with the 3 point mount the belt would ride up
to my belly button. This is a very uncomfortable feeling and when I
finished my S2 I just left the belts out. I have worn seatbelts since
I started driving 34 years ago but I don't feel safe with them on in
the Elan. The 3 point belt is the WORST design I have ever seen.
Unless you keep are able to keep the seat all the way back I think
they are more dangerous than not wearing them at all. Lap belts would
be better than the three point, the four point is no different so I
guess that leaves only 5 and 6 point systems, and they are some what
unrealistic for a trip to the store for a loaf of bread.

Gary

Ready-fire, aim!










To search the mailing list archives:
http://www.escribe.com/automotive/europ ... index.html
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