Lotus Elan

New 'Frankenstein' in the Alps

PostPost by: piple » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:56 am

Well I know, originality counts on old cars. But there is allways a but..

I have a project car, totally without drivetrain. But the car should go back in the streets as reliable well used car. 8)

My intention is to swap the not existing engine with a Zetec-SE (Sigma) engine. Due to regulation, I am not allowed to modify the chassis and I have to stay with the original chassis as well.

So the well documented half moon modification is not possilbe. Spyder isn't a option als well :roll:

In thread elan-mods-f31/zetec-engine-lotus-chassis-t24502.html Bud mentioned the possability to move the transmission backwards.

So my first few questions:
- how far can I move the transmission backwards without interfering the chassis?
- how far goes the pulley of the zetec engine 'into' the crossmembre?
- the picture from Bud shows the MVH-engie. Which is the 'normal' Zetec engine. It says the lenght of the enigne overall is close to 490 mm. I found a few infos about the Zetec-SE engine, which says this engine is just 470mm long. Where can I find any futher infos on the SE enginge?

Sorry about my rough english, it my 4th foreign language.

Regards,
Piple

PS: Picutres will follow
piple
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: Principality of Liechtenstein, Europe

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:20 am

What you're hoping to do will be complicated.
The half moon cut out in the cross member provides the necessary space for the front pulley/damper.
The engine even when fitted into a chassis with this modification has the back of the cylinder head/crankcase very close to the bodywork bulkhead. A special adapter for the engine thermostat, located on the back of the cylinder head is necessary under "normal" circumstances.
The route you are thinking about will need the bulkhead removed locally to get the engine in.
Access to the bell housing mounting bolts etc. will then be very restricted.
I'm not certain about space in the chassis for the Lotus gearbox; maybe it will work out, but I think that using an MT75 / 5 Speed gearbox would be almost impossible.

The authorities would not notice that 1/2 moon cutout, surely?
After all do they have any idea of what an original chassis looks like anyway :wink:

Cheers
John
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: piple » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:56 am

Very close means within a few mm?
If this is the only way, so I have to find a solution with the bulkhead.
My hope is, that the SE-engine is a few 20-30mm smaller thant the normal Zetec.
As I saw on the pics just the pulley is intrudes not to far in the 1/2 moon cut. Can someone tell me more?
According to a technical pic, the pulley is only 44 mm. But this is the info of an normal Zetec.

Gearbox:
I have allready found infos, that the Type9 is not as wide as the MT75. May the original will help me here further.
So it has enough space to move 20-30 mm back.

The responsible expert pointed me especially on the chassis thing. I guess, he used Google to find infos about the engine swap on a Elan :cry:

If nothing works, I have to go the original route, but than the +2 can't be used for what i wanted. :cry:
piple
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: Principality of Liechtenstein, Europe

PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:50 pm

Is it possible to use a smaller diameter pulley on the Zetec and avoid the chassis cut? I run a 75 mm pulley on my racing twin cams to cut the pump and alternator revs at 8000 rpm engine speeds so a smaller pulley on a Zetec should be possible if it helps with chassis clearance.

cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7601
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:57 pm

rgh0 wrote:Is it possible to use a smaller diameter pulley on the Zetec and avoid the chassis cut? I run a 75 mm pulley on my racing twin cams to cut the pump and alternator revs at 8000 rpm engine speeds so a smaller pulley on a Zetec should be possible if it helps with chassis clearance.

cheers
Rohan



Not a safe area to play around with.
Apart from its torsional vibration damper function both of its clamping faces are vital.
The front one for the central crankshaft bolt & the rear one for clamping on to the toothed belt pulley for the cam timing.

Cheers
John
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: piple » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:01 pm

May someone with the conversion has the posability to measure the distance between the bellhouse and the crossmember. this would help me a lot.

thanks in advance
Piple
piple
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: Principality of Liechtenstein, Europe

PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:10 pm

GrUmPyBoDgEr wrote:
rgh0 wrote:Is it possible to use a smaller diameter pulley on the Zetec and avoid the chassis cut? I run a 75 mm pulley on my racing twin cams to cut the pump and alternator revs at 8000 rpm engine speeds so a smaller pulley on a Zetec should be possible if it helps with chassis clearance.

cheers
Rohan



Not a safe area to play around with.
Apart from its torsional vibration damper function both of its clamping faces are vital.
The front one for the central crankshaft bolt & the rear one for clamping on to the toothed belt pulley for the cam timing.

John


Hi John
Torsional damping in a 4 cylinder engine should not be critical most don't ever have it. The clamping faces for bolt and tooth belt pulley should be much smaller is diameter than the v belt itself so should be able to reduce the v belt pulley diameter I would have thought?

No practical Zetec experience though so just suggesting :oops:

Cheers
Rohan
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7601
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:17 pm

rgh0 wrote:
GrUmPyBoDgEr wrote:
rgh0 wrote:Is it possible to use a smaller diameter pulley on the Zetec and avoid the chassis cut? I run a 75 mm pulley on my racing twin cams to cut the pump and alternator revs at 8000 rpm engine speeds so a smaller pulley on a Zetec should be possible if it helps with chassis clearance.

cheers
Rohan



Not a safe area to play around with.
Apart from its torsional vibration damper function both of its clamping faces are vital.
The front one for the central crankshaft bolt & the rear one for clamping on to the toothed belt pulley for the cam timing.

John


Hi John
Torsional damping in a 4 cylinder engine should not be critical most don't ever have it. The clamping faces for bolt and tooth belt pulley should be much smaller is diameter than the v belt itself so should be able to reduce the v belt pulley diameter I would have thought?

No practical Zetec experience though so just suggesting :oops:

Cheers
Rohan



I agree but my only worries would be about the quality of a "different" pulley. The surface finish & run-out of the surfaces is so important, as is the hardness value of the material being used.
Not every machine shop has that knowledge or experience, hence my word of warning.

Cheers
John
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: c42 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:41 pm

Hi Piple

To be honest in your situation I would use a mildly tuned crossflow unit, these will bolt pretty much straight in and can give similar power output to a Twincam but a really easy install.

Regards
John
User avatar
c42
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 324
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Location: Rugby, Warwickshire

PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:47 pm

Wise words indeed :)

Cheers
John
Beware of the Illuminati


Editor: On Sunday morning, February 8th 2015, Derek "John" Pelly AKA GrumpyBodger passed away genuinely peacefully at Weston Hospicecare, Weston Super Mare. He will be missed.
User avatar
GrUmPyBoDgEr
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 3151
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Location: Burnham-on-Mud

PostPost by: piple » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:57 pm

c42 wrote:Hi Piple

To be honest in your situation I would use a mildly tuned crossflow unit, these will bolt pretty much straight in and can give similar power output to a Twincam but a really easy install.

Regards
John


A wise decision would be to buy a running car. :twisted:

Before I install an xflow, I'll stay original. But I have allready a car with a engine from the 60s. I want to build the +2 to a daily driver to bring the joy and design to new glory. 8)

And thats the car:

Image

Pic 'borrowed' from the seller thread
piple
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: Principality of Liechtenstein, Europe

PostPost by: oldchieft » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:42 pm

Hi
If you go with Xflow you can get a running car quickly and sort the rest of the systems.
Later on get the bits needed to turn it into a twin cam.
Jon the Chief
oldchieft
Third Gear
Third Gear
 
Posts: 403
Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Location: Near Wolverhampton

PostPost by: piple » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:35 am

Hi all,

May someone with the conversion has the posability to measure the distance between the bellhouse and the crossmember. This would help me a lot, to make a my mind, what happens to the engine project.

thanks in advance
Piple
piple
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: Principality of Liechtenstein, Europe

PostPost by: Bud English » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:15 pm

A quick measurement with a steel tape shows 18 1/4" from the engine block/bell housing split to the flat rear face of the front cross member. Actually that's the rear face of the block because I was measuring from the Intermediate plate. Even for the twin cam, the cross member has a half moon cut. If you can't make that bigger by regulation, you probably can't trim the frame bulkhead at the front of the tunnel to move everything back. Hindsight being 20/20, I wouldn't have made my relief cut quite as big and I would have kept it half moon shaped.
Bud
1970 +2S Fed
"Every Lotus that an owner modifies makes yours worth that much more." - You're welcome!
User avatar
Bud English
Fourth Gear
Fourth Gear
 
Posts: 950
Joined: 05 Nov 2011
Location: Winnemucca, NV, USA

PostPost by: piple » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:49 am

Thank you, this helps to investigate further.

Regards,
Piple
piple
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: Principality of Liechtenstein, Europe
Next

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests