Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?

["Bob Layman"]

Sitting in my garage is a SVT Zetec engine that I plan to engineer into
a S4 Elan I have been rebuilding. At the moment, I am thinking along
the lines of a Porsche 901 transaxle to solve the Zetec transmission
issue. The 901 trans (unused clutch housing removed) would mount in
place of the Elan diff. For a clutch housing, I hope to use a Focus
gearbox/clutch housing cut apart suitably. Obviously, there is much
engineering to do to make the whole thing happen.

Originality -- nothing will be irreversible, and the whole project is
true to the original Elan concept.. Many years ago, I had two
conversations with Chapman himself as to some of the not so finer
points of engineering on the Elan. He did not take my criticism well
at all, but did agree that we were on roughly the same page of the same
book regarding light, lively, and cheap (relatively) cars.
Consequently, I am happy that my Zetec project will in no way cause
Colin any angst wherever he or his spirit may be.

Any effects on the value of my car are my business, and, as already
mentioned, one less not so pristine "original" baby Elan should improve
the value of any pristine "original" Elan. BTW -- "pristine" is not a
concept that Colin Chapman recognized.

Bob Layman

[tvacc]

Yes..those EBY Racing flares were real nice. I wonder what happened to (I
think his name was) George Eby. I bought those from him in 1974 or 75 as I
recall. He was in Texas and had them shipped to Buffalo, NY by Greyhound
bus.



I ran into him either in person or by 2nd person.(somebody I met knew
him).but that was a long time ago.



Great looking flares..best I ever have ever seen.then and now.



Tony Vaccaro

www.lotusowners.com



_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Jeff Kyle
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:05 PM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?



Michael Geiger wrote:

First off - I think the reason that you can get +2s for so cheap is that
for most people, they're just not very attractive. It's the same reason
that the Europa, 70s Elite, Eclat, etc, aren't very valuable. If you're
only interested in the value of what's in your garage - well, a Lotus of
any sort is probably not the best choice of cars.

As I said earlier, an '05 STi is my daily driver (traded in an '02 WRX)
so I'm well aware of the charm of the turbo Subaru. (Actually, I seem to
recall that in the US, Lotus considered the STi as a competitor of the
Elise... I guess they often appeal to the same people.)

However - last time I checked, an Elan with a Zetec engine and Spyder
chassis hardly counts as "common"; in fact, technically it's much more
unique than a stock Elan. (Unless you feel that the engine is the only
thing that matters, in which case, you obviously aren't interested in
the Elise, what with all those Celicas running around!) Whether or not
that's desirable is a question that everyone has to answer for themself.
There's certainly not many cars running around that are remotely like a
Zetec Elan, and I don't WANT the conveniences on my Lotus. (I prefer my
S2 Elan to later ones partly due to the lack of electric windows, etc.)

But have to fear, my car is already making yours more valuable by it's
non-originality; in fact I've often said that if circumstances ever
forced me to sell my Elan, I'd make a mold of the flares and then stick
'em on the Elan I'd buy when fortune turned my way again - I like 'em
that much. Original is fine if you're talking a 1960 Chrysler 300F (or
matching-numbers Hemi Road Runner or heck, a Model T) - but this is an
ELAN, a car that basically started life as a kit car and was meant to be
driven, not to be a museum piece. I'd also agree with what Tony said
earlier, there does not seem to be a severe shortage of nice Elans out
there.

Ah well. I'm still at least a year away from actually doing anything,
but I'm used to getting abuse about whether or not my car is "real" - I
used to own a Porsche 914.










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[Martin_StuartUK]

I'd agree with that...it confuses me why someone would wish to take an icon like the Elan and turn it into, effectively, a Ford-based kitcar with an old glassfibre bodyshell, on the grounds that they can't live with the maintenance implications of the original car.

It begs the question; 'if you don't want an unreliable old car, why not buy a reliable new one'?

Perhaps a little unfair on our friends Stateside, but here in the UK you can buy a mint condition used Elise for much the same price as an Elan. It starts first time, every time, runs with the smoothness and efficiency of all modern fuel-injected cars and gives just as big a grin as an Elan with its performance and handling. Oh, and it's a Lotus, not a mongrel with a Lotus badge!

Alternatively, there are plenty of Ford-based kitcars out there that will do the same job as the Spyder Zetec conversion without losing one of the dwindling number of restorable Elans...try the Fisher (nee Sylva) Fury, if you want something close to the Elan in concept - it even uses an Elan windscreen!

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Geiger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?


There many, many fun to drive cars out there, my WRX comes to mind. Why not simply buy one with a warranty and all the conveniences of life if that is what you want? Why would you buy something unique only to make it common? My WRX is dead reliable and fun. When I want to different
and have fun I take the Elan out.

Ooooh I've probably made ~someone~ unhappy.

Mike Geiger

[simon.mitchell]

I think that the original question here was more 'how do I?' than 'tell me why I shouldn't', but nonetheless I'm not surprised that the Zetec conversion leaves some people confused - I think that you either 'get' the appeal of upgrading an old car or you don't.

Modifying a Lotus is obviously an emotive issue for some - I wonder if thisextends to other cars too? The Morris Minor is also generally accepted to be a motoring 'icon' so presumably it would be a no-no to put a K-series engine in one? I bet there are some who can't think why anybody who does so doesn't just buy a Rover 25 instead..

I'd keep it original if I had to for historic motorsport, or if I wanted tojoin the 'polish and pose' car show brigade - otherwise there are still plenty of museums around for those who want to see what things were like in the old days



Martin Stuart <***@***.***> wrote:
I'd agree with that...it confuses me why someone would wish to take an iconlike the Elan and turn it into, effectively, a Ford-based kitcar with an old glassfibre bodyshell, on the grounds that they can't live with the maintenance implications of the original car.

It begs the question; 'if you don't want an unreliable old car, why not buya reliable new one'?

Perhaps a little unfair on our friends Stateside, but here in the UK you can buy a mint condition used Elise for much the same price as an Elan. It starts first time, every time, runs with the smoothness and efficiency of allmodern fuel-injected cars and gives just as big a grin as an Elan with itsperformance and handling. Oh, and it's a Lotus, not a mongrel with a Lotusbadge!

Alternatively, there are plenty of Ford-based kitcars out there that will do the same job as the Spyder Zetec conversion without losing one of the dwindling number of restorable Elans...try the Fisher (nee Sylva) Fury, if youwant something close to the Elan in concept - it even uses an Elan windscreen!

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Geiger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?


There many, many fun to drive cars out there, my WRX comes to mind. Why notsimply buy one with a warranty and all the conveniences of life if that iswhat you want? Why would you buy something unique only to make it common? My WRX is dead reliable and fun. When I want to different
and have fun I take the Elan out.

Ooooh I've probably made ~someone~ unhappy.

Mike Geiger

[davidallen]

I am fortunate (or mad) enough to own both an elan and Sylva Fury so am in
the unique position to do a comparison!

Without boring you all there is little difference. You sit lower in the
sylva, the ride harder and the steering is quicker which may or may not be
good points but both cars perform beyond limits of my bravery.

If anyone is interested on what a Fury is, there is one on ebay at the
moment

So, I guess if you wish for performance and not a badge buy a Sylva and save
some money.

If anyone is interested in what one looks like, there is one on ebay.
(fitted with a crossflow) at the moment

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fisher-Fury-NOT-S ... -Hood_W0QQ
itemZ4573605328QQcategoryZ29750QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Stuart [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 06 September 2005 08:05
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?


I'd agree with that...it confuses me why someone would wish to take an icon
like the Elan and turn it into, effectively, a Ford-based kitcar with an old
glassfibre bodyshell, on the grounds that they can't live with the
maintenance implications of the original car.

It begs the question; 'if you don't want an unreliable old car, why not buy
a reliable new one'?

Perhaps a little unfair on our friends Stateside, but here in the UK you can
buy a mint condition used Elise for much the same price as an Elan. It
starts first time, every time, runs with the smoothness and efficiency of
all modern fuel-injected cars and gives just as big a grin as an Elan with
its performance and handling. Oh, and it's a Lotus, not a mongrel with a
Lotus badge!

Alternatively, there are plenty of Ford-based kitcars out there that will do
the same job as the Spyder Zetec conversion without losing one of the
dwindling number of restorable Elans...try the Fisher (nee Sylva) Fury, if
you want something close to the Elan in concept - it even uses an Elan
windscreen!

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Geiger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?


There many, many fun to drive cars out there, my WRX comes to mind. Why
not simply buy one with a warranty and all the conveniences of life if that
is what you want? Why would you buy something unique only to make it
common? My WRX is dead reliable and fun. When I want to different
and have fun I take the Elan out.

Ooooh I've probably made ~someone~ unhappy.

Mike Geiger























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you have received this communication in error and must not distribute or
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[Jeff Kyle]

Martin Stuart wrote:

You DID walk right into this:

A stock Elan is, effectively, a Ford-based kitcar with a now-old
glassfibre bodyshell. And, the grounds for the change are performance,
not maintenance (reliability is the icing on the cake.)

Anyway, as Simon said, the question WAS more of a "how do I" (or rather,
"has has anyone else done it?"), not "tell me why I shouldn't." I'd love
to see someone doing a well-documented project that I could see on a
website. It looks like no one has done that yet, but I appreciate any
solid info that I can get off the mailing list. (And thanks to those who
have provided such!)

I tried to make it very clear in my original message that I know exactly
why I shouldn't do the conversion, and that I am very torn about doing
it - I completely appreciate the appeal of having the original twincam
under the hood attached to a Lotus chassis.

[v7slr]

I know this "argument" is about the baby Elan, but the same emotions have
been expressed about modifying the +2 too. For me the +2 is the perfect
format for a 4 seater toy car that is in dire need of modernisation. I
accept the argument that an alternative to the Elan could be the fury or the
Stylus (which has a great looking hard top too) but what alternatives are
there for a fun 4-seater? Don't say Porsche/BMW or whatever because I want
something unique and basically *small*.



I think I want a 4-seater Fury really. Better still a 4-seater Caterham 21.



Now, if you take the Caterham 21 and extend it. you end up with the Lotus
Elan +2.



-----Original Message-----
From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of ALLEN, David
Sent: 06 September 2005 13:14
To: ***@***.***
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?



I am fortunate (or mad) enough to own both an elan and Sylva Fury so am in
the unique position to do a comparison!

Without boring you all there is little difference. You sit lower in the
sylva, the ride harder and the steering is quicker which may or may not be
good points but both cars perform beyond limits of my bravery.

If anyone is interested on what a Fury is, there is one on ebay at the
moment

So, I guess if you wish for performance and not a badge buy a Sylva and save
some money.

If anyone is interested in what one looks like, there is one on ebay.
(fitted with a crossflow) at the moment

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fisher-Fury-NOT-S ... -Hood_W0QQ
itemZ4573605328QQcategoryZ29750QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Stuart [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 06 September 2005 08:05
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?


I'd agree with that...it confuses me why someone would wish to take an icon
like the Elan and turn it into, effectively, a Ford-based kitcar with an old
glassfibre bodyshell, on the grounds that they can't live with the
maintenance implications of the original car.

It begs the question; 'if you don't want an unreliable old car, why not buy
a reliable new one'?

Perhaps a little unfair on our friends Stateside, but here in the UK you can
buy a mint condition used Elise for much the same price as an Elan. It
starts first time, every time, runs with the smoothness and efficiency of
all modern fuel-injected cars and gives just as big a grin as an Elan with
its performance and handling. Oh, and it's a Lotus, not a mongrel with a
Lotus badge!

Alternatively, there are plenty of Ford-based kitcars out there that will do
the same job as the Spyder Zetec conversion without losing one of the
dwindling number of restorable Elans...try the Fisher (nee Sylva) Fury, if
you want something close to the Elan in concept - it even uses an Elan
windscreen!

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Geiger
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?


There many, many fun to drive cars out there, my WRX comes to mind. Why
not simply buy one with a warranty and all the conveniences of life if that
is what you want? Why would you buy something unique only to make it
common? My WRX is dead reliable and fun. When I want to different
and have fun I take the Elan out.

Ooooh I've probably made ~someone~ unhappy.

Mike Geiger













CopyrightC LotusElan.net and the author:




_____

[lotuselan2]

Jeff

I second your thoughts. I put the BDR in my +2 to get something like the
same power to weight ratio that a baby Elan has. Conversion is a lot
simpler than your Zetec conversion and the BDR is a trade off with respect
to reliability, easy until something big goes wrong.



Ken

'69 Lotus Elan +2 with BDR

_____

From: ***@***.***lto:***@***.*** Behalf
Of Jeff Kyle
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 8:26 AM
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?



Martin Stuart wrote:

You DID walk right into this:

A stock Elan is, effectively, a Ford-based kitcar with a now-old
glassfibre bodyshell. And, the grounds for the change are performance,
not maintenance (reliability is the icing on the cake.)

Anyway, as Simon said, the question WAS more of a "how do I" (or rather,
"has has anyone else done it?"), not "tell me why I shouldn't." I'd love
to see someone doing a well-documented project that I could see on a
website. It looks like no one has done that yet, but I appreciate any
solid info that I can get off the mailing list. (And thanks to those who
have provided such!)

I tried to make it very clear in my original message that I know exactly
why I shouldn't do the conversion, and that I am very torn about doing
it - I completely appreciate the appeal of having the original twincam
under the hood attached to a Lotus chassis.









CopyrightC LotusElan.net and the author:





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[garyeanderson]

Why is not that important, in the United States, the Elan (not
plus2) is still more common than an Elise (but not for long). The
Elan is still relatively inexpensive and twincam are not. The Elan
can always be put back to stock if desired (not inexpensive but
certainly very
do-able). I would start with the SVT Zetec engine that Bob Layman
spoke of and would mate it with the stock elan gearbox using what
ever bellhousing that is most adapable, this would probably be the 70-
72 english bellhousing that came in the Ford Pinto equiped with a
1600 kent and make what ever mods that were needed for the Zetec
side. I would keep the elan 4 speed gearbox and get hold of the 3.54
or 3.55 differential for the slight overdrive that it offers over the
3.9. The front of the chassis (vacuum tank/crossmember) in front of
the engine would possibly need to be releived (a la Spyder). All of
the mods nessesary would be kept to the front of the Elan and would
probably live for a long time if it were not beaten to death by super
wide/sticky tires and drag strip type of starts. All of the above is
the simplest and least costly, if something did break, I would then
look into more mods to take care of it. I have it on good opinion
(mine) that 150 hp/130+ lb/ft torque twin cam in an Elan S2 lives
just fine.

Gary Anderson

[Martin_StuartUK]

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Kyle
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Anyone with Zetec-in-baby-Elan experience?


You DID walk right into this:

A stock Elan is, effectively, a Ford-based kitcar with a now-old
glassfibre bodyshell. And, the grounds for the change are performance, not maintenance (reliability is the icing on the cake.)


Not quite...it is a kitcar with a Ford gearbox, a Ford bottom end to the engine and Ford diff internals. There are a lot of custom Lotus suspension components and the rest of the suspension and steering are Triumph parts. Kitcar or not, it's also one of the most historically important sportscars ever built, and the very details that you'd be destroying by undertaking the Spyder conversion are what make it technically fascinating.

Also, importantly for some of use, it is a *Lotus* kit car!

I'm not anti-kit car. Like David Allen, I own a Sylva too - albeit a semi-race Phoenix Clubman rather than the more civilised doors-windscreen-and-weathergear Fury, and very good it is too. It is MUCH quicker than an Elan, uses reliable and readily available Ford components, and cost me the princelysum of ?4,000, ready to race with a high spec engine and gearbox.

...so it STILL doesn't make any sense to me why you'd want to spend four times that amount devaluing an Elan to acheive the same ends.

I also think it is worth reiterating that anyone who thinks that the full Spyder conversion is easily reversible is kidding themselves. NO drivetrain components are retained. NO chassis components are retained. NO suspension components are retained. In engineering terms, it is a COMPLETELY differentcar under the skin. Only the (non structural) bodyshell and interior fittings are re-used. Unless you retain all the original chassis and drivetrain components as a rolling chassis assembly, carefully stored at the back of your garage, there is no way it will ever be cost effective to turn it back into a Lotus.

I'm not some uber-purist, honestly - I fitted a Spyder spaceframe chassis to my own Elan, when the original needed replacement, on the grounds that the original could not safely and sensibly be saved and the Spyder gave me a stronger chassis with much better access to mechanical components. But it did NOT effect the way the car handled or performed, nor did it corrupt Colin Chapman's (or rather, Ron Hickman's) original suspension geometry and balance.

Martin

[s2lola]

Folks,

"Why do we care"? Its one guy, with his own project. Can we please stop
lecturing the poor fellow on the moral shortcomings of carving up an Elan?
They aren't that scarce, nor that valuable.

While I may/may not admire the finished product, I do kinda appreciate that
he's not driving a souped up, 150db stovepipe-muffled nitrous-addled Honda
Civic (with the hatch-filling, ear-splitting amps). At worst, he'll have a
car that is not comparable (or relatively saleable in comparison to) an
Elan. At best, maybe this guy is gonna have a lot of fun building and
driving his car.

Think of all the cheap Lotus bits he'll have for sale!!!!!

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt


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[Roy Gillett]

An interesting subject!

I have an S2 with 26R style front and unknown rear flares with
very wide JAP wheels. It was converted, as far as I know, in '70/71.
It is a '65 car. I presume it lived as a standard car before. I
bought it 4 years later and have not changed the body shape at all.

So..six years as a 'proper' car or 34 years as it is now? An Elan
racing friend of mine has always opined that I should return the car
to 'original'. However, as far as my ownership is concerned, it IS
original, and because of the way it looked, it was the reason I
bought it over my preference, which was for a +2!

In '82 I re-chassied with a Spyder spaceframe. So, now, 17 years
on a Lotus chassis, 23 on a Spyder.....

Oh, what a conundrum!

And I do think that the spaceframe changes the feel of the car,
unlike some.

I do feel, though, that part of the essential part of the Elan
experience is the older style of Ford twincam, so we are essentially
talking upgrades to BDA, BDG or.... What about an FVC!

My opinion, of course.

Roy
'65S2

[Briggs1]

I don't see any harm in dropping a Zetec into an Elan.

Had planned on doing it myself.

What I did find interesting is that a Plus 2 just fetched $18,000 on Ebay.

Who would have ever figured?

Briggs Pletcher
71 Europa S2
71 Elan Plus 2

[type36lotus]

Probably all original.

Mike Geiger

--- In ***@***.***, "Briggs Pletcher"
<BriggsPletcher@V...> wrote:

[Jeff Kyle]

Michael Geiger wrote:

1. Not all original, it's been restored.

2. Gee, that's getting close to what people are paying for a
Spyder-modified Elan +2.

FWIW a stock baby Elan in "great condition" also just sold on eBay...
for $12,400. Interesting... who woulda thunk a +2 would fetch 50% more
than a baby Elan?