Lotus Elan

Should we as owners try to set sensible +2 Prices

PostPost by: stuart » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:41 am

Hi Kevin

Can I have 10 5 speed gearboxes for £500 each please

regards
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PostPost by: JonB » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:49 am

Slowtus wrote:If/when I buy another Plus 2 I want to pay as little as is I deem 'reasonable'

If/when I sell another Plus 2 I want as much money for it as I deem reasonable.

But...the market will set the price - and whether we agree with where that price is - is almost irrelevant.

"Setting prices" is a bit like duct-taping jelly to a tree (much better idea than nailing jelly to a tree), it can be done but...


^ This. We can say what we want here, but it's down to the buyer to decide on what he/she will pay. And if recent sold prices are anything to go by, the answer is "not much". :(
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PostPost by: alanr » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:14 am

I would like to ask the question, at the end of the day does it really matter what your +2 is worth?
All hobbies cost money be they boating, flying or even fishing. If you lose a few quid along the way then so what!
It is the enjoyment that you got surely whilst owning the car and tinkering with it that really matters I would say.
Its a hobby ...just accept that it is going to cost.
Too often the enjoyment in a hobby centres too much around price and how much it is worth.
Just enjoy!

Alan.
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PostPost by: JonB » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:17 pm

It matters when you sell, especially if you need the money to fund a new car.
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:56 pm

alanr wrote:I would like to ask the question, at the end of the day does it really matter what your +2 is worth? All hobbies cost money be they boating, flying or even fishing. If you lose a few quid along the way then so what!It is the enjoyment that you got surely whilst owning the car and tinkering with it that really matters I would say.Its a hobby ...just accept that it is going to cost. Too often the enjoyment in a hobby centres too much around price and how much it is worth.Just enjoy!Alan.


Agree 100%

I've always bought on that assumption and have bought cars based on
1. Competition history
2. Technical merit and interest (eg. small capacity, high HP naturally aspirated engine)
3. Rarity.
4. Cheap price
5. Don't care much about paint and other superficialities so long as body is sound rust wise and crash wise.

I had virtually every Australian variant of the Mk1 Escort at one point, Mk1 1100, Mk1 1300, Mk1 1300 auto, Mk1 1300GT, MK1 Twin Cam, Mk1 1600GT Twin Cam. Obsessed!! Still am with these. They are the ultimate Meccano set. I also had a Chrysler Charger E48 (Rare Australian muscle car with factory triple webers), E3 BMW 3.0S, 1970 Honda 1300 coupe (air cooled 1,300cc 115HP and Sochiro Honda's personal design) and a 1972 Honda Z360 micro car.

So far I've done reasonably well with these criteria especially with the sporting Escort variants.

I currently lust over the last of the series 3 XJ12 Jaguars. I'd just love one of those converted to manual transmission. Beautiful characterful design and very cheap at the moment. I almost bought one that had a broken timing chain tensioner for $800 a year or two ago before common sense got the better of me!! Just the sight of that massive engine and birds nest of wires and tubing when you lift the bonnet - Wow!

I do really like Lotus Elans too of course although It hasn't quite got to the lust stage - not yet anyway, but it could still be possible!!
1970 Ford Escort Twin Cam
1972 Ford Escort GT1600 Twin Cam
1980 Ford Escort 2.0 Ghia
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PostPost by: trw99 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:11 pm

Kevin, in answer to you question I would have to say that it is the market that sets prices. Or at least, the buyer does when they buy a particular car.

As a guide I use the Hagerty valuation tool, here https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationt ... Lotus/Elan

Have a look at their methodology and you will see that the accuracy of their valuations is as close as any can get.

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PostPost by: Frogelan » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:46 pm

The +2 is a great car and it is not appreciated as much as it should be.

There are 4 notions that should not be muddled.

- Prices are whatever a vendor wishes to ask...
- Value is the consensus of the market - regression analysis is a good way to analyse this.
- Worth, is the amount an individual is prepared to pay (this will be influenced by his weighted average cost of capital or more probably, his better half...)
- Cost: the breakdown of the parts is obviously an interesting way to look at the subject, but it is mainly handy as a reference.

Tim's point about the Hagerty tool is fair and works if the items are fairly standardised.

With old cars this is inevitably a tricky subject. Some restorations are done really well others are very bodged. This leads to variations in value, but rarely in asking price...
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PostPost by: JimE » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:30 am

Back to reality, a top end +2s 5 speed should go for £35k plus. Paul Matty sold GHW (which they had fully restored) for lates £30s. The ex Ronnie Peterson +2 went for over £60k at auction and needed work doing to it. Jim
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PostPost by: alanr » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:49 pm

Good luck with finding a buyer willing to part with £35K for a +2!
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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:17 pm

An exceptional car will get that money, but it will take £60k plus for a professional restoration to get it there!

The Elan Plus 2 does better than many Plus 2 cars. The E Type 2+2 is half the price of it's 2 seater Coupe or convertible siblings. Most Ferrari 2+2 cars are a lot less than that.

Whilst the Elan Plus 2 is valued at a fair bit less than the 2 seat Elan, the values seem even less as there are not too many 'show' condition or freshly restored Elan Plus 2 cars on the market. There seems to be no shortage of mint-sprints around that haven't turned a wheel since a very expensive restoration, so it can seem that the £35k to £45k Elan is almost the norm. But again, restoration costs, when done to a high standard, will exceed that number on their own, let alone buying the car in the first place.

A driver-quality Elan can sill be had for £25k or so, which probably compares with a driver quality Elan Plus 2 around £15k. That seems to be a fair reflection of the popularity of a 2 seat vs a 2+2 Elan.
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:42 pm

I don’t necessarily agree with Hagerty
It is an American company. With American interests first (Europe overvalues 1960’s+ American junk, simply because there are few on the market).
If you look back to where cars became more “collectable” (as I see it). It started with the rarity of a marque. My earlier example of a 71 240z. Good ones seem to sell for about $100k. If you were to take the number of “good” 240z’s on the planet. There would be three times as many as +2’s. The z’s would be worth $100k. A +2, $20k.
I think then you would look to racing success. I know the elan was never meant for racing, nore were all the groupie A cars, or groupie C cars in our case. Then you take that statement, and question. If a C car is soo good...
Then you take that “one of the best cars ever” and make it longer and wider, so you can accommodate a family with gear for an adventure.
Yes there are a few huge dollar cars that they only made a few of. And others that were born with special equipment, making them worth more money.
My argument is the rarity, and success of Lotus (I argue any <1974 Lotus, should fit between AC Cobra/Ferrari values and a 240z i.e. >$200+k). Then, and foremost. The +2 was built on a production line.

If we all flooded the market with $3,000,000 +2. The value would go up. Guaranteed
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PostPost by: Quart Meg Miles » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:39 pm

One point not mentioned in the valuation table is authenticity. And considering what you can do to a pre-war Bentley and still get $1,000,000 it doesn't seem to matter provided that it looks like a brand new car. It is almost odd talking about car values on this forum when half the posts are like "What colour should my S1 dash bolts be"; many here want their cars to be like they were originally, not just as a symbol of being able to afford a classic era car and run it like a new one.

But it doesn't change the market values. Personally I think Elans should be valued like E-types. Lotus won more prestigous races than Jaguar and there were fewer of them made. Both are kit cars in as much as they have their own chassis, engines and bodies but populate them with Lucas, Girling and Wilmot Breedon parts. Although the Elan doesn't use any F1 car components, apart from the front uprights, it does have that racing car feel compared to its rival, so why the price difference.
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PostPost by: persimmon » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:37 am

The E-Type is a bit different in its construction.Whereas the Elan +2 has a metal chassis and the body simply sits on top and is bolted to it , the E-Type Jag uses a framework of high tensile steel tubes to carry the engine , radiator and front suspension.This is then bolted onto the front of the steel tub ( similar to aircraft construction ).
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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 am

Part of the difference in prices between the hand-built Elan and the mass-produced E Type is the cost of restoration. Is takes many more hours to restore an E Type bodyshell that an Elan bodyshell. I think that most Elan owners wouldn’t like to spend £30k plus having the fabric of the shell repaired, and then another £10k - £20k on top to get it painted!

It’s the same with Cortinas. A ’63 Mk1 Lotus Cortina in perfect condition with good provenance is valued around £70k - £90k. A ’68 Mk2 Lotus Cortina in the same condition around £50k - £60k. But it’s very easy to have to spend anything between 500 and 1500 hours repairing and painting the shell properly, and when you add in the cost of restoring everything else, you may just break even restoring a Mk1 Cortina to perfection, including paying £20k odd for a project car.

With an Elan, you can buy a new shell for £3k if the original is beyond economic repair, and a new chassis for £2.5k, and then get the car painted for another £10k. It’s a very different proposition.
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PostPost by: Quart Meg Miles » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:03 pm

Good point, Mark, and that explains why people aren't crawling all over the moon, "not because it is easy, but because it is hard".

Personally, I am jolly glad Elans are cheaper!
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