Lotus Elan

Should we as owners try to set sensible +2 Prices

PostPost by: JimE » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:17 pm

jasper2347 wrote:We buy, sell and restore classics for a living. I've always said a car is worth what someone will pay for it at the time of sale. Restoration cost are sometimes a hole you can't dig yourself out of, once you start, you have two choices. Go forward or sell the project. We try to get through to potential customers the costs involved with body resto's. Some people don't realise how long it takes or what is involved to do a proper job. Mechanical work is easier to estimate, so I always recommend potential buyer to look for a good car bodily, or at least one they are happy to look at. I don't see any +2 being worth north of 20k, but classics are out of control at the moment, caused I think by all these TV shows that restore a basket case in and hour episode. Prices I think are in for a fall shortly, as they did a few years ago. Let's wait and see. :D

Tell that to Paul Matty and UK Sportscars. They both have +2s for sale at £38k and £40k respectively.
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PostPost by: jasper2347 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:44 pm

Best of luck to them. They might find a lottery winner? The 40k one is just about four times what I was offered for my mint '73 with 78k miles last year. Needless to say it's asleep in the garage waiting for better weather. :D
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PostPost by: jono » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:54 pm

I know of many Plus 2's which brought significantly more than 20k, including my own
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PostPost by: jasper2347 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:37 pm

Might try mine again if we ever get out of lockdown. The only interested parties in mine were the traders. They were going to sell at 16-18 and were offering 10-12. We were asking what they said was retail for them. No private buyer enquiries at all except some idiot from France offering 9000 euros. Seen them wanting full resto for more than that. Did have a blast round the industrial estate before parking it up. So much fun I might just keep it anyway? Probably keep the hillclimb +2 as well as we have only had daft four figure offers for that. Not desperate for the parking space or the money. Be nice to have a bit of fun this year though.
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PostPost by: kwhittle » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:44 am

Well, I have read all the posts, and still belive it's up to owners to set the selling price.
Compare the +2 to the E type 2+2.

When new they were only £100 apart in selling price.
Which do you think is the better car ?

So why the great difference in prices, would it be because the owners have more self belief in their cars. is it the differing cost of restoration.

Either way, Jaguar owners know the value of their cars and will not sell cheaply.
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PostPost by: jasper2347 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:33 pm

Agree totally Kevin, that's why I still have mine. Had a ride short out in it today, the fun factor is still there. smiling all the way. cheers, Rob
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PostPost by: Slowtus » Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:11 pm

kwhittle wrote:Well, I have read all the posts, and still belive it's up to owners to set the selling price.



You can set the ASKING price but you have rely on the market to decide whether that becomes the selling price.

Anyway, the bias here is such that, by definition, everyone selling would like the highest possible price...

Market decides.
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PostPost by: steveh » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:16 pm

Personally other than the £100 when new i don't feel a direct comparison between the 2+2 E type and the lotus+2 , they are very different cars in many respects. The Jaguar is very refined with high quality engineering in every component , a different driving experience. Quoted as under priced when new , maybe the Lotus was over priced by comparison ?.
Condition aside values between the 2 are more variable on behalf of the Jaguar, from the highest S1 4.2 manual rhd then reducing with auto, twin strombergs Vs 3x SU , lhd , V12 engine ,Series 1,2,3, - sunroof -- not all 2+2 e types are high value.

I also think that P Matty is good guide for the UK --minus 10-15% for a private sale , a competent owner who knows their car thoroughly are right to be able to set a price accordingly , elsewhere this falls down with deluded sellers and deluded buyers with apposing expectations.
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PostPost by: alan.barker » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:06 am

If a +2 was the same price as a Jag type E you wouldn't have one. Because it would be far too expensive and out of the budget of most.
Surely it's better if they stay cheap then more people can afford one and have fun.
A poor man's E type.
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PostPost by: SwissBlue » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:53 am

Slowtus is absolutely the correct.

The market sets the value, driveable +2s seem to range from 16k to 40k, depending on condition and who the seller is (you know who). Based on the amount of fun and excitment I get from my +2S 130/5, they are worth more than any MGB/Triumph... As I'm not selling, I'm quite happy for them to be 'undervalued', should I want to sell (unlikely) I may feel differently
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PostPost by: Bud English » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:42 pm

A lot depends on your definition of "sensible". I have to agree with Alan's sentiments. Putting your personal effort and money into the car to have, drive, and enjoy for the love of the experience is one thing. That sounds sensible to me. Putting your personal effort and money into the car and expecting to sell it for what you've invested, sounds to me like to opposite of sensible.

A "sensible" person isn't going to pay any more than your car is worth to them, not what the car is worth to you. :wink:
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PostPost by: Slowtus » Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:01 pm

Bud English wrote:A lot depends on your definition of "sensible". I have to agree with Alan's sentiments. Putting your personal effort and money into the car to have, drive, and enjoy for the love of the experience is one thing. That sounds sensible to me. Putting your personal effort and money into the car and expecting to sell it for what you've invested, sounds to me like to opposite of sensible.

A "sensible" person isn't going to pay any more than your car is worth to them, not what the car is worth to you. :wink:


This,
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PostPost by: berni29 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:52 pm

Hi

I thought I would add my thoughts to this thread seeing as I have been looking at +2's recently so have some idea of the market. +2's are reasonably difficult to price because there are so many variables, and almost every car is a different proposition. Unlike many other marques where things are more standardised.

At one end are completely (in as far as this is actually possible) original cars. These will be unrestored generally speaking. There is a late car on Ebay at the moment that is about as good as it gets for 23k I think it is. There was a restored "showroom" condition car on Ebay that went for 19.9k. That car looked pretty much perfect.

Then we have nice originalish but patinated cars going for between 13-16k. There was one recently with a fully documented 5k+ rebuilt engine (lot 154 Berlinetta auctions) that sold for 13.75k. I was in fact going to buy that car but decided not to because it was an S and also had the bonnet bulge which I really do not like. I much prefer the early cars and a flat bonnet. Nice otherwise.

Cars needing restoration, but are running seem to be around 10-12k, and you can expect these (and the category above) to largely look original, but will be incorrect in many many details. Not surprising after 50 years of lord knows what.

The Zetec cars have a very wide spread also from approx 10k for a nice running car with a Lotus chassis and just the engine "updated" to 30k I guess for a recent one fully done by Spyder. There are a lot of variations in between.

In every case add at least 10-20% (often more) approx to buy from a dealer. There seem to also be a lot of very "optimistically" priced cars at dealers (mostly) out there. Having said that there are people to whom price and "value" is not an issue, and they just want what they want. I also have a couple of Porsches (993 & 986) and a friend of mine recently sold his "rare" 993 C2S for 20k more than it was actually worth (60k vs 40k). He's very happy. Not so much the buyer, but that's a different story.

I have not mentioned basket cases, but probably 5k is the floor.

Then we have stalled restoration projects. These are the most variable propositions of all. They seem to be 8k - 15k with a 15k one being newly painted with a fully rebuilt engine on a new rolling chassis, fresh interior, all parts present and refreshed, needs putting together. The 8k one is a stalled chassis change on a generally tired but OK car, but will have several issues. You can see cars like this being advertised at a certain well known dealer for getting on for twice what they would sell for privately with descriptions that completely omit obvious glaring faults/bodges or lack of originality.

All of the above is based on my recent observations. I am happy for others to see it another way.

For my part I have agreed to buy an early (chrome boot release) car with no sunroof with a nicely painted (5 years ago) body. Its an ex racer with a few holes cut in it here and there for racing purposes, and its had a new nose. Its almost an invisible repair and seems well executed. Most people would not notice it. Originality is not an issue for me. It needs most of the interior updating which is fine for me personally as I will only drive a car with headrests so will source different seats. I also fancy making the interior bit more "racy". The running gear is interesting, the engine is out of the car, has been rebuilt, and has the head in bits. The Pistons are new QED standard size, and the cams and valves are new. The bottom end I have not seen, but apparently looks new. I shall take the whole thing apart because it has been sitting for quite a while. Its a late 701M block and obviously not original to the car. Its not the race engine that was in it. The webber carbs look good, but I have not closely inspected them. The chassis is going to need changing unfortunately (its a modified painted original). I will do a separate post on this when I actually take delivery of the car later this month. The car also has solid drive shafts, a type 9 gearbox with a "home" but well engineered linkage, and pretty much all the bits to complete sans things like the alternator, starter and check straps. It also has been rewired but needs a fuse box. The running gear looks new or close to and the underneath is very clean. There will be a fair bit of work in getting the car back together.

I am basically paying 11k for the above (depending on what the removed chassis is worth when the time comes). I will be doing all the work including the engine myself (with the help of my brother). We have worked on several of these cars together and stripping the engine, inspecting and rebuilding is not an issue. We are fully rebuilding a Porsche 996.2 3.6 engine at the moment and that is a real challenge! I'm not much looking forwards to the chassis change, but thats just because it is a PITA. Its all just our time over winter.

Anyways, the post is drifting nicely off course so I shall end there.

Thoughts appreciated

All the best

Berni
Looking for a + 2, Previously Racing green +2s with green tints. Yellow +2 and a couple of others, all missed. Must get another soon!
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PostPost by: JJ66 » Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:44 am

Hi Bernie, that sounds like a pretty good overview of the market as it stands today, you’ve done a lot of good research. Your car sounds like a great base for a modified/updated car and your plans will produce a good looking drivers car by the sound of it. For your interest I paid £15k for a late 130/5 car (1973) just before lockdown, totally original matching numbers with a fat history file and detailed owner log from when the car was three years old (42 years of sole ownership by previous person). The body is tatty and it needs a gearbox rebuild but it fits quite well into your categories! I’m happy with it and that’s the main thing (I love the originality). Good luck with your rebuild and it will be great to see some pictures as you progress.

Regards, Jonathan
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