Plus 2 or Plus 2S

[Grizzly]

Fog/Spot lights...... Why did they use one of each? I thought i was loosing the plot when i noticed it on my S130, i was just about to change them when i noticed thats how they where supposed to be.

My old 'S' had one of each, switched individually by two white rocker switches located in the lower dash crash pad, right of the steering wheel, items 47 & 48 here, http://images.lotuselan.net/lel/38393/0/image.jpg
To me, this was logical, if a bit of a strange idea. My current 'S130' came with one of each, but switched together by the one rocker switch in the dash, labelled "FOG", next to the side/headlight switch. This made no sense to me at all, as you don't want a bloody driving light dazzling you in the fog, might aswell use main beam Like you, I thought at first this must be a PO's doing, so changed the spot for a fog, to make a pair of fog lights, then found out that no, that's how it would have left the factory. I still have the original spot light in the cupboard, but have stuck with the pair of fogs, for me, much more logical & useful.

That sounds very familiar, i have a bit of a fleet at the moment so the idea of swapping them about had crossed my mind

[gus]

Uk Market........ 67 +2 car is different to the late 69 +2 car..... we agree that.

Grizzly, other than the explainable 68/69 model difference I don't see what you are maintaining is 'different'

So apart from there different!!!! you don't see why i think there Different??????? Ok

Just trying to figure if your trying to wind me up or being serious now??

You are not making any sense

you have all sorts of ideas about what happened in real time that do not correspond with the facts

I spelled out what is my understanding of the production history, and if you have any specific issues with that please do correct me, but please don't make up an independent history of the cars being 'bitsa' cars because you do not understand the history. There are two different non-S cars, not a car with 'some S parts' not a 'bitsa' car

[theelanman]

there are only 4 types of +2

the +2
+2S
+2S 130/4
+2S 130/5

between the variants are cars that used some of the upcoming parts........



the only special in this lot was the JPS version.....and that was only a paint job......

[gus]

there are only 4 types of +2

the +2
+2S
+2S 130/4
+2S 130/5

between the variants are cars that used some of the upcoming parts........



the only special in this lot was the JPS version.....and that was only a paint job......

This is incorrect, I spelled out the history above, I have seen little or no evidence of the use of 'upcoming parts'

It is entirely possible that Lotus played more fast and loose with parts for cars in the UK, but again, I fail to see evidence

[theelanman]

oh.....youre not in the UK then.....

[Grizzly]

He's arguing for arguments sake........

This sums it up perfectly and is correct as far as i'm concerned........ so only the post 68 cars made it to the US so Gus won't have seen a 67 car to compare the two side by side.

If you look at the change points identified in Robinshaw & Ross Elan and Plus 2 book, the major steps were:

Sep '67 - +2 indroduced

Mar '68 ? Federal body introduced for USA market. The changes included:
Revised bootlock assembly with remote (lock)
New doors, including trim panels, ashtrays, armrests, flush fitting internal locks / handles and exterior handles'
Re-designed exhaust box and boot floor
and a few more bits

Sep. '68 Federal body specification introduced to all markets

Dec '68 ? New bonnet design to suit Stromberg Carburettors

Mar '69 - +2S Introduced with more luxurious interior and reclining seats, dash with 2 extra minor instruments and rocker switches, fog lights

Jan '71 - +2S 130 introduced ? big valve engine.

Mark

[carrierdave]

Is that the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?

[gus]

>>>. so only the post 68 cars made it to the US<<<

so keep making things up until, what ?

of course there are early cars here, not a lot, but they are certainly here, over the last 30 years I have seen somewhere between 'several' and 'many'

[Elanintheforest]

It's the 5 day with contradiction.

There is a serious side though because it is worth bashing out what's what to shine a light on the 'my car is like this so it must be true' mindset, and try and achieve some concensus.

I think it is worth putting dates to model types and variants, whilst recognizing that there will be areas outside the stated parameters that aren't wrong, but just small car manufacture getting every penny out of what they have sitting around. It doesn't appear that Lotus had a very tight hold on stock control, and finding enough parts to make a few of the early Plus 2 cars alongside the 'S' for a few months it pretty easy to see happening. It doesn't make any business sense to want to do this, other than moving old stock cars on that haven't sold, or building up cars from the now redundant parts rather than scrapping them.

When I started my website on Lotus Cortinas many of the old sages said that trying to define what models were built when and what changes happened when was an impossible task, as Lotus was a law unto itself. This is just nonsense, and now it's nearly all defined, with perhaps 1% that can be focused on as 'undefinable' or at least unreliable!

I think that we're nearly there with the main details of the Plus 2.....but what about those detail changes for the very early cars, and indeed the very last run of cars? One of my very early Plus 2 cars had perspex quarterlights as the stock of glass ones had't arrived at the factory! It also had grey wheels under the re-painted silver, which all the first few had.

But I think a full blown detail change point analysis is something for another topic, and using the Ross / Robinshaw analysis as the starter for 10, which will probably get us most of the way there!

Mark

[Grizzly]

Ok enough, short of parking an early and late UK +2 up and physically showing Gus what the differences are this is just going to go on and on........ Thats before it even gets to the fact he has a E/E US federal car so even though it was built next to a UK spec that will be different to it's Uk equivalent. But i guess i'm wrong just making it up hey Gus.......

Btw, Gus top right hand corner of the post your replying to there is a Quote button......... makes it easier to understand what your saying and what your quoting from another post. You might want to add where you are to your Profile, i know this is a US site but a good percentage are in the UK, so when your talking about some thing on an Elan people know your referring to Federal which of course is different to Uk spec (even though they were built side by side)

[gus]

Grizzly you have yet to make a point

I have explained the major design point changes[as I understand them] and you have yet to respond that you have any idea what you are talking about , no less call me out as being mistaken on any individual point

The reason I take issue is that you are devaluing the car as more slap dash assembled than it actually was because of your own ignorance of what actually occurred, evidenced by your own commentary, not understanding that your idea of 'non S' is completely wrong.

[The Veg]

Jeez guys, get a room or something!

[Grizzly]

Gus..... You quite obviously haven't come across any retrofit cars. I keep repeating the early and late +2 are different which you agree with then tell me i'm wrong and that they are different?

Grizzly, other than the explainable 68/69 model difference I don't see what you are maintaining is 'different'

All i wanted to know is why the +2 was so random....... It went from the car i currently have in the garage which is early 68 to some thing closer to a +2s with +2 interior. I asked why all the late cars seem to be different with no car the same like they were Bitsa cars using up old stock...... That turned out to be because of the Retrofit LHD cars + Uk spec (cars with the body converted to help Export to the US) 69 cars + unsold early 68 cars on 69 plates + cars restored with the wrong bits fitted.

SO.......... The cars i saw when i was buying my original spec +2 were NOT the same...... You argue that they were and we go round and round, but obviously you only see the Federal cars that were sent after the Body change in 1968! so you haven't seen any of the other spec cars we have here in the uk..... which is why it's insulting when you comment on me making it up when you don't know your self. I thought you knew this because you haven't put where you are on your Profile and automatically thought you where in the Uk because you were commenting on what cars are for sale here..........

[gus]

who the hell is arguing that they are the same?

I told you why they are different, not that they are not different, and that it is not random. There is one known lot of Federal cars converted to RHD, not random, long known, no doubt to the original purchasers, as they were Stromberg cars.

you have yet to come up with single piece of evidence to support your 'random' opinion despite much evidence to the contrary

go ahead, make another post arguing against something I didn't post.

[rgh0]

As Lotusarchives said Lotus were making both the Plus 2 AND the Plus 2S during 1969 and there was probably cars made that were a mixture of both depending on parts availability in addition to the US car and the US cars converted back . So a car made around then could really be anything and trying to apply logic almost 50 years later is an exercise in frustration.

As for fog lights, spot lights or one of each that also seems to be debatable. My 72 130/5 came with two spot lights which were original as far as I could tell when I got it in 1980 -- go figure

cheers
Rohan