Plus 2 or Plus 2S

PostPost by: Grizzly » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:28 pm

LotusArchives wrote:The red +2 that started this all is a 1969 car, although as stated in the sale list, while production of the car started in 1969, it was not completed/passed to sales until 1970. Reason for delay unknown.

In 1969 there were 3 models being manufactured that I am aware of;
S/E (noted as special equipment in the build file - standard version),
E/E (emission equipment model for the US),
S ('S' upmaket factory built version with plusher trim).

As with all manufacturers, the +2 along with other Lotus models had running changes which is why a early car will have some differences to a later car.

Also remember the +2 was sold worldwide, so just because it does not appear on a UK price list does not mean it didn't exist, and as we know sometimes unsold stock got reworked and sold to the domestic market like the 50+ Federal unsold +2 E/E cars that were reworked and sold in the UK. The white car sale that was linked above is one of those.

So the S/E was another name for the first +2 or is the S/E the altered +2? I'm a little confused to be honest as my early +2 doesn't appear to say S/E anywhere? and the last later non s i saw close up had a different boot floor and exhaust arraignment among other things that made me thing it was a different model. (Forgetting Federal cars which where some thing different again)

Yep i get old stock got retrofitted, you don't have to tell me that i have two such cars. I guess Lotus had a habit of playing with unsold stock when it had sat for a while.

Maybe they are all the same and it's just me.... But i saw lots of them when i was buying mine.
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PostPost by: gus » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:45 pm

"For me a +2 (non S) had external boot catch and S3 type door handles etc, the model changed when the S came out to replace some of the harder to get parts? Is this not true?"

No, it is not true

there is an early non federal non S that has the external boot catch transfers exhaust and toggle switches

there is the federal non S which has internal boot catch, straight exhaust and for US cars, rocker switches

This is actually a fairly common car.

I was surprised to see such a late car with toggle switches, as we never see them in the US, Federal cars with rocker switches started in early 68, so it is somewhat uncommon to see a toggle switch car at all.
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:09 pm

Ok right, Federal cars are accounted for (E/E) and lotus made S/E at the same time..... But why are the late cars badged S/E and the Early ones not? http://www.elanregistry.org/list_cars.php i saw 15 or so pre 68 cars, i saw federal converted cars and i saw the later +2 S/E cars (all different and all RHD) are you telling me the red car in the first post is a converted Federal car? because i thought they stood out and were not that common as stated 50 (Boot pull on the wrong side, Hex spinners,Inlet cross over pipe, different high back seats and holes where the peddle box was etc..... as i say i saw allot of the early cars and only 2 Federal converted cars)
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PostPost by: gus » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:17 pm

Please go do some research as I am running out of ways to explain this

The car in the OP is a standard late non S, period

Teh early style transverse exhaust and early door handles ended in early 68, long before the S existed
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:27 pm

Just tell me why my 1968 car is different to that 69 car that as LotusArchives said was being built at the same time as the "S" and is NOT a rare Federal car (50 converted) as i've seen one first hand and it's different again.......

Mine 68 non S.... Toggle switches, S3 door handles, S3 external boot lock, side exit exhaust, different clocks, different back lights one badge that says +2 on the front wing.

the 69 non S...... Toggle switches, later clocks, middle exhaust (totally different boot floor not just a different exhaust), later door handles/locks, Internal boot pull (on the correct side) S/e badge on the rear 1/4, chrome side strips below the doors.

E/E car (Federal) High back seats, different spinners, Internal boot pull on the wrong side, Centre exhaust , Emission cross over pipe, up sprung head lights, holes where the LHD peddle box ones was. (rare 50 converted)

What i'm trying to find out is was there a +2 and then an S/e version of it (like they did with the S4 2 seater) because the 68 and 69 are different. If you go through the pictures of +2 on here http://elanregistry.org/list_cars.php the S/E badge only appeared in the 69 on pictures.......
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PostPost by: gus » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:49 pm

The body changed in 68 Nothing to do with S or non S

One would expect early body to dribble out till mid 68

69 cars, S or not, should all be straight exhaust flush door handles

There were no transverse exhaust S cars[afaik], which does not mean that straight exhaust cars are all S cars,which you seem to have assumed. Transverse exhaust stopped around a year before the S was introduced and nearly a year both S and non S were produced.
In the US there was no S/E AFAIK, all stromberg cars had S/E spec engines, but I could be wrong on that
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:44 pm

Gus, what i'm saying is the 68 and 69 UK spec +2 is different (nothing to do with S or Federal cars converted) I'm sure the model is just a +2 but the spec WAS changed (lots of minor things) so my question remains did they have another name for it like they did with the 2 seater S4 and S4 S/E, because all the late UK cars i've seen have had S?E on the 1/4 and all the early pre 68 haven't had that badge.

Sorry don't know who's car hope you don't mind me using it as an Example.
Note, 1969 Door handles, Sill strip, rear badge etc (basically an S with Non S interior)
20150208074757_005.jpg and


Or

Note 1968 S3 door handles and only a "Elan +2" badge on the other front wing.
4793052.jpg and


Do you see the difference that i'm talking about? Who know's i may have picked the wrong example and the 69 is actually an S with 2 seater seats in it and some one forgot to fit the spotlights. Or the owner has changed it's appearance.... But there are more like that, just the first one i came across the right way round.

Anyway enough now, been here before and ended in much the same way when i wanted to know why they were different.
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PostPost by: gus » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:35 pm

I have no idea what you are getting at

discussing badging on a nearly 50 year old car is foolishness

As I said, in 68 there was a major body change, a year before the S came out, so yes, an early 68 is different from a 69

the car in the OP is a normal non S plus 2
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PostPost by: LotusArchives » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:41 pm

Data from the parts list;
Door locks changed from VIN 50/0929 (September 1968).
The introduction for the sill trim is not listed.
There is no S/E badge that I can find, just a World Championship badge in the location shown on the image you posted.

We know the Special Equipment model existed as shown on the attachment, but I cannot find information regarding when the Special Equipment name was used.

You will find various changes throughout any Lotus models life, not all changes are reserved for series or model name changes.
Attachments
elan-2-special-equipment.jpg and
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PostPost by: Grizzly » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:05 pm

Out of int interest....... Did they change the Boot lock, Exhaust / boot floor at the same time? as an Update or some thing? Giving me a headache now but the 68 and 69 are different so i'd expect it all happened in 68.

Not sure why i've seen them with SE badges but then i've seen S4 elans with both S4 badges and Sprint decals so it's hardly a shock people put a badge on just to cover holes, as you say 50 years is a long time.

gus wrote:No, it is a very standard non federal, non S, plus two. Rather late for the chrome window switches, and perhaps the steering wheel is later, but I see no S details whatsoever.

Gus, really....... I told you it was different and you swore i was dreaming, No S detail what so ever, you put spot lights in a 69 +2 and you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from the outside.
Last edited by Grizzly on Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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PostPost by: mark030358 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:07 pm

Excellent debate from Grizzly and Gus, just goes to show we all look at things differently. I've never taken much real interest in the +2 (apologies) however, as I said, I enjoyed that debate.

Thanks
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PostPost by: p.faurie » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:29 pm

Diggo, just my humour after having a few beers whilst watching my team win, go and look at a Morgan and ask the same question :lol:
Regards phil
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PostPost by: Diggo » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:16 pm

Oh dear. I didn't expect this to create such a heated debate. just goes to show the passion behind lotus lovers.
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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:19 pm

Don't let it put you off! Lotus cars tend not to follow the sequential conventions adopted by most other car manufacturers!

If you look at the change points identified in Robinshaw & Ross Elan and Plus 2 book, the major steps were:

Sep '67 - +2 indroduced

Mar '68 ? Federal body introduced for USA market. The changes included:
Revised bootlock assembly with remote (lock)
New doors, including trim panels, ashtrays, armrests, flush fitting internal locks / handles and exterior handles'
Re-designed exhaust box and boot floor
and a few more bits

Sep. '68 Federal body specification introduced to all markets

Dec '68 ? New bonnet design to suit Stromberg Carburettors

Mar '69 - +2S Introduced with more luxurious interior and reclining seats, dash with 2 extra minor instruments and rocker switches, fog lights

Jan '71 - +2S 130 introduced ? big valve engine.

So the only anomaly seems to be that this car, built in October '69, passed to sales a few months later, was well inside the 'S' model having been announced in Mar '69. But it's specification looks good for an original non-S built between Sep '68 and Mar '69

This car could have been part built long before Oct '69 or had paint issues or any one of a number of things that meant it may not have been completed for a while, and in the meantime,. the 'S' had been launched. It could have used up old parts as a 'discount' car for a member of staff, or just to flog another car irrespective of it being an old model. We'll probably never know.

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PostPost by: Grizzly » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:50 pm

LotusArchives wrote:In 1969 there were 3 models being manufactured that I am aware of;
S/E (noted as special equipment in the build file - standard version),
E/E (emission equipment model for the US),
S ('S' upmaket factory built version with plusher trim).



Mark, The Federal cars (E/E cars) are some thing a little different again (i take it your not referring to the 50 Federal retrofitted cars) makes sense being a small manufacture they made changes to the whole +2 platform to ease the transition into the US market while cutting costs of having two sets of mouldings on the go at once, but the "Federal" cars had Federal headlights (up-sprung), Federal hex headed wheel spinners and a few other things that the UK cars didn't have. "Federal body specification" is a bit misleading as many were never intended for America.

That i can tell you for sure ;)
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