Lotus Elan

Accepted Mods

PostPost by: Henry VIIII » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:31 pm

Kerryt333 wrote:Hi All,
One mod not mentioned yet which I would consider a must is a cassette type water pump, can be done yourself if you have access
to a lathe & milling machine.
Regards
John



Would you not also need to be able to weld aluminium alloy?
Henry
1967 S3 FHC
A joke a day helps you work, rest, and play. :lol:
Henry VIIII
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 157
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: Middlesex, UK

PostPost by: jimj » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:13 pm

Re. Tims suggestion about even storing such as the old chassis, what a cracking idea. Elans, though not as rare as some vintage cars, will be one day. How nice to think that in X years time future owners will bless such foresight.
On a similar note a pal who uses a particular rare road (not saying what) car alot competitively has had a new engine built up to original spec. but lightened, balanced, flowed etc. He`s naturally saved the matching numbers original engine. The renowned restorer and builder of such engines (not saying who) provided the new engine, and I mean brand new everything, with the block stamped with, you guessed, the original number.
No subterfuge is intended, other than to maintain eligibility of the car in certain events, certainly no fiscal benefit, as he`s kept the original engine but it does make you wonder. These matching numbers exotics which sell for ?millions with serious racing history will surely not really have the original engine, but original specification is crucial.
One day........
Jim
jimj
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1135
Joined: 25 Feb 2008

PostPost by: Spyder fan » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:47 pm

Elanintheforest wrote:I'm not so sure that a full Spyder car is a modified Elan....surely it's a car in it's own right? If so it isn't really comparing like with like...A totally re-engineered 'semi=modern' car compared with a modified classic car.

If the modifications include replacing the chassis, engine, gearbox, differential, front suspension, rear suspension, steering, brakes, wheels and a host of other bits and pieces, then most of what an Elan left the factory with has been thrown away.

If I was to mount an Elan shell on a Land Rover chassis and running gear, would it be a 4WD Elan? Or a Landy with a different body?

I would guess that the value of a Spyder Plus 2 follows more of a 'new car depreciation' profile than that of a classic car that has been restored, so its price wouldn't reflect that of an Elan Plus 2, to authentic spec or modified spec.

Discuss. :shock:
Mark


Hi Mark,
:lol: :lol: Maybe we should "Discuss" elsewhere out of respect for the original subject posted.... and don't say I started it, it was you that mentioned money; again!

Spend ?40k on restoring a +2 to original and 3 years later it will be worth 20k. The base price for A1 cars is no higher than 20K so how can they not lose money.

BTW: no usable parts were "thrown away" on either of my 2 builds, they all reside inside politically correct Elans'.

Regards

Alan
Kindest regards

Alan Thomas
User avatar
Spyder fan
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2541
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Location: Kent country & Sussex seaside UK

PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:05 pm

I don't think that money (in terms of investment value) is the main driver for anybody restoring a car, but my interpretation of 'accepted mods' included the acceptance of mods by others. The best way of measuring that acceptance is value, as applied to classic cars in general, and that nearly always translates into the highest price being achieved for the most authentic restorations, or the very rare original / low miles / one owner....etc. etc.

That applies to Healeys, Jaguars, Ferraris, Minis, Lotus Cortinas, Sporting Escorts, Astons....and pretty much every other classic I can think of.

I'm a rare case in keeping the cars I restore, but most folks sell them on after a few years, so I figured that value is an important part of 'acceptable'.

Chris Evans paid around ?28k for his Plus 2 from Paul Matty. Had it have been its original colour I'm sure it would have been more!!

Mark
User avatar
Elanintheforest
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2897
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire

PostPost by: Kerryt333 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:57 pm

Henry VIIII asked if when modifying the water pump cover to a cassette type would you have to know how to weld aluminium?
Probably depends on the thickness of the cover & the amount of corrosion.I modified mine without any welding,& just had enough
room to squeeze in the 2 O-rings.Mind you some owners are lucky enough to not have any trouble with the standard pump
throughout their ownership.
Regards
John
Kerryt333
Second Gear
Second Gear
 
Posts: 70
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Location: Dorset, UK

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:14 am

Mark

"Chris Evans paid around ?28k for his Plus 2 from Paul Matty. Had it have been its original colour I'm sure it would have been more!!"

Chris Evans is a knob-head with more money than sense...

John :wink:
User avatar
john.p.clegg
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 5691
Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

PostPost by: jono » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:22 am

Get off the fence John :mrgreen:
jono
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1633
Joined: 17 May 2007
Location: The wet bit in the top corner of England

PostPost by: Chancer » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:02 am

john.p.clegg wrote:Mark

Chris Evans is a knob-head with more money than sense...

John :wink:


But what does that signify? He could be as poor as me and still have more money than sense :wink:

Personally as much as I disliked his on air persona I think you have to be either be quite shrewd to amass that sort of money.

His best pal who was also once a celeb has large breasts and he doesnt have a pot to pi55 in so I guess it must be the former :D
Chancer
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1391
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Location: Northern France/ Sussex UK

PostPost by: Spyder fan » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:09 am

Elanintheforest wrote:I don't think that money (in terms of investment value) is the main driver for anybody restoring a car, but my interpretation of 'accepted mods' included the acceptance of mods by others. The best way of measuring that acceptance is value, as applied to classic cars in general, and that nearly always translates into the highest price being achieved for the most authentic restorations, or the very rare original / low miles / one owner....etc. etc.

That applies to Healeys, Jaguars, Ferraris, Minis, Lotus Cortinas, Sporting Escorts, Astons....and pretty much every other classic I can think of.

I'm a rare case in keeping the cars I restore, but most folks sell them on after a few years, so I figured that value is an important part of 'acceptable'.

Chris Evans paid around ?28k for his Plus 2 from Paul Matty. Had it have been its original colour I'm sure it would have been more!!

Mark


A sound and reasoned argument Mark, apart from using the Matty/Chris Evans car as an example, that was an exceptional car that sold for far less than it's restoration cost and still included a large portion of dealer margin which us mere private sellers can't achieve. At least ?20k was lost by the original purchaser.

Perhaps the mantra should be "Modify if you want to, but take care with what you want".

Agreed; from a resale value point of view non standard or wacky paint schemes should be avoided unless you really are going to keep the car to the point that it would need restoring when you came to sell it anyway. Mechanically at the moment with current fashions it looks as though value will be affected downwards for non standard engines and major components, by how much is difficlut to project in the future or perceive in the present. Standard bodywork and paint is the biggest single cost of any restoration, no matter what modifications are under the skin, if you get the body and interior A1 original, the car will always have a value.

So where do we differ on this? and is it relevant to the original post?


BTW: I agree with John regarding the cranial features of Mr Evans.......the stupid git paints all his Ferrari's white :roll:

Regards

Alan
Kindest regards

Alan Thomas
User avatar
Spyder fan
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2541
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Location: Kent country & Sussex seaside UK

PostPost by: ardee_selby » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:15 am

Spyder fan wrote: BTW: I agree with John regarding the cranial features of Mr Evans.......the stupid git paints all his Ferrari's white :roll: Regards Alan


:roll:

...and even more stupidly he lets others with money to burn (aka donate to charity) to drive the bl**dy things!

Cheers - Richard
ardee_selby
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2255
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Location: Outta Here

PostPost by: trw99 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:13 pm

Let's hear if for the barn finds, too!

http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news ... -at-barons

Tim
User avatar
trw99
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2834
Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Location: Essex/Herts border, UK

PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:19 pm

Alan, my view is that I don?t see the Spyder Plus 2 as a Lotus or an Elan or a modified Lotus Elan. It?s an almost entirely different car, and as such, comparisons, either financial, performance etc. just can?t be made that have any real meaning.

Don?t get me wrong, I?m not dismissing the Spyder as a lesser car than the original, just a different car. The yellow Plus 2 rolling shell that I?m selling was destined to be Spyder-ised by me, but it is yet another project too far.

So in a discussion of ?standard? Plus 2 vs ?modified? Plus 2, introducing the Spyder as a financial comparison is just the same as introducing a Caterham?.i.e., no real relationship to the argument.

I do agree that a loss would be made on a cheque book restoration, but I guess that my argument would be that the loss could be a lot more if the car moves away significantly from standard form. That goes for all the classic cars that I know!

My guess is that the Spyder will follow a depreciation much the same as a Caterham or an Ultima or a car of that sort. They tend to depreciate slowly down to a minimum of 50% or so of their cost after 10 or so years if still in pretty good nick.

Classics follow a very different financial profile, and when maintained properly post-restoration, have only increased at least in line with inflation in the past 10 years or so. Their depreciation is in the difference between the restoration cost and the sales price, which isn?t necessarily a large amount when restoration is completed at home (but paintwork usually farmed out), but then over time, the value slowly goes up. Unless you?re buying in 1989 and trying to sell in 1991 of course.
User avatar
Elanintheforest
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 2897
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire

PostPost by: jimj » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Mark, you`re spot on as usual. Mr. Fixit`s interesting question sought the overall view regarding modifications rather than individual opinions justifying their choice. I think the general view is that the IDEAL is to maintain the original character absolutely by keeping the car to original spec. Some owners, me included, have made modifications to suit personal circumstances and accepted that compromise.
Jim
P.S. I quite like Chris Evans so we`re not all alike.
jimj
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 1135
Joined: 25 Feb 2008

PostPost by: tinker » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:59 pm

After reading all the views on value, originality and accepted mods the two biggest deviatons from factory build that nearly every restorer makes are the fitment of a galvanised chassis and painting the body with a basecoat and lacquer modern paint system, the first thing you see when you look at a car. So if you keep your old chassis do you keep your old paint ( I know you can't refit it), is your car worth less with modern paint ? being the costliest part to replace. Or do you consider your car to be original because its an original colour but with a different non original paint system. Food for thought. Tony.
tinker
First Gear
First Gear
 
Posts: 17
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Location: KENT

PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:30 am

What mods are "accepted" depends on whether you are a buyer / seller or a keeper.

All of my Lotus have mods to make them more fit for my use. As I am a keeper who keeps and enjoys my Lotus and not a seller, I dont really care about the impact either positive or negative these mods may have on the market value just how they affect my enjoyment in using the car.

In the long run from a buyers / sellers market perspective an orginal car will always get more in the same condition as a modified car unless the buyer is a user who want to use it in the same way as the seller and would do the same mods as already done. As most users these days of Plus 2 are like me and are about weekend "fun" use then most of my mods would attract a good buying group if I ever sold (which i will not be doing).

Key "mods" for a plus 2 in weekend fun use for me are:

1. CV drive shafts (reliability and elimination of surge)
2. Electronic ignition ( reliability and ease of maintenance)
3. Electric fuel pump ( ease of starting after periods of sitting)
4. Modern sticky tyres ( fun in the corners)
5. Spyder spaceframe subframe (cant call it a chassis - it not really required but when the old chassis expired due to rust in the backbone i just liked the spyder design better, its a little stiffer and maintenance is easier with it also)
6. Uprated engine using ported head, bigger valves and hi lift cams to around 150 hp ( building nice twin cams is fun)
7. Better sump baffling (to avoid oil surge in righthand corners with those sticky tyres).
8. Preengage starter ( reliability and ease of starting)
9. MGB centre muffler in exhaust system ( keeps the noise to levels that dont attract to much attention )
10. 3 row core in standard small radiator with modern ducted electric fan ( keeps it cool on hot 40c plus Australian days in heavy traffic)

As mine is a late Plus 2 three things I have not needed to do is fit a five speed as it came with one orginally, if it did not have one, I would fit one from the options available, orginal Lucas alternator so no need to replace generator and I have not modified the suspension which is still superb for road use even with modern sticky tyres.

I also dont call new paint, new air in the tyres, new modern oils in engine and gear box etc mods!!!! :lol:

cheers
Rohan
Last edited by rgh0 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
rgh0
Coveted Fifth Gear
Coveted Fifth Gear
 
Posts: 7513
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
PreviousNext

Total Online:

Users browsing this forum: bill griffiths and 5 guests