Lotus Elan

New electric Lotus, old batteries

PostPost by: Andy8421 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:43 am

Donels wrote:Yes that’s true but then add in the extra energy required to accelerate a tonne of battery and hydrogen is not looking as bad. For small cars the battery is a significant part of the weight. For a truck it’s less so, but then the load carrying capacity is reduced because of the huge battery weight.
Environmentally hydrogen production is also much less polluting than mining and processing lithium. Then add in the energy required in both processes and it’s becoming more balanced.
Look at the end to end processing and usage of battery compared to hydrogen. It’s much closer than you think.


I don't want to sound like a battery / Tesla Fanboy, but the arguments currently do favour batteries.

As for weight, its not just the hydrogen - the tanks, fuel cell and stuff all add to the weight. As I posted above, the Toyota Mirai is the current state of the art of hydrogen powered vehicles. It is approximately the same size as a Tesla model 3, and weighs 1850kg. The Tesla model 3 in AWD performance trim weighs 1847kg.
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:58 pm

Although it's very sexy to talk about how the latest Tesla, el-fantastico-electrico, hydro-orgasmatron, etc. is going to save the world the real question is electricity generating capacity to support all these cars. Who cares about how many fast charge stations are being installed - the issue is electricity generating capacity not the number of power points.

Unlike yet another shiny new gadget it's not sexy conversation (especially for governments because it requires long term integrated planning) but nevertheless it must be discussed and governments seem to be totally ignoring it. For an electric car conversion percentage of 10%, 20%, etc. etc. how much more electricity needs to be generated and how are we going to achieve it? The current percentage of the vehicle population that is electric is less than 1%. I've never seen a plan considering the projected effect on the grid.
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:03 pm

2cams70 wrote:Although it's very sexy to talk about how the latest Tesla, el-fantastico-electrico, hydro-orgasmatron, etc. is going to save the world the real question is electricity generating capacity to support all these cars. Who cares about how many fast charge stations are being installed - the issue is electricity generating capacity not the number of power points.

Unlike yet another shiny new gadget it's not sexy conversation (especially for governments because it requires long term integrated planning) but nevertheless it must be discussed and governments seem to be totally ignoring it. For an electric car conversion percentage of 10%, 20%, etc. etc. how much more electricity needs to be generated and how are we going to achieve it? The current percentage of the vehicle population that is electric is less than 1%. I've never seen a plan considering the projected effect on the grid.


You are not the first to ask that question.

https://theenergyst.com/millions-electric-vehicles-sooner-predicted-no-sweat-says-national-grid/
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PostPost by: JonB » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:12 pm

Fingers crossed, the answer may be fusion. Unfortunately, it's been 30 years away for at least 30 years; but if we achieve it, the question of end to end efficiency becomes a bit moot. All you need to concern yourself with is range.

Yet you still need the charging points, and you'll have to beef up the National Grid to carry the additional load.

Edited to add: That's a very interesting and positive article about the Grid being able to cope. Thanks for posting it!

So. How about electrifying a Plus 2?
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:41 pm

I couldn't find a simple worked example, so I had a go myself. I would interested if anyone could check my maths. Using round numbers and assuming everyone switched to an electric car today:

Soon to be launched Tesla Model Y goes 4 miles per kWh, there are 30 million private cars in the UK, each of which does an average of 7,600 miles per year.

That equates to 20 miles per day, or 5 kWh per day. If you assume a 5 hour charge period, that means the grid will have to supply an additional 1kW to each car owner for 5 hours. That would be an extra 30GW instantaneous load on the grid.

The UK grid currently has a day vs night swing in demand of 15GW, so assuming the cars were charged overnight, with no changes to our current grid or powerstations, we already have enough capacity to charge half the possible number of electric cars in the UK. Real life would of course be very different, but as a ballpark figure, it doesn't seem insurmountable.
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PostPost by: The Veg » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:01 am

JonB wrote:So. How about electrifying a Plus 2?


I've spent a little time imagining it. Certainly seems do-able.
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:35 am

That was my plan buying this one. But its just too nice
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PostPost by: 2cams70 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:04 pm

Andy8421 wrote:You are not the first to ask that question.https://theenergyst.com/millions-electr ... onal-grid/


Call me stupid but I read that as a lot of industry gobbledegook spin doctoring spoken by someone who could suffer decapitation for giving the wrong answer and after one round too many shandies!

Let's face it - the reality is people are going to want to charge their electric cars (oh and let's not forget all those electric powered trucks (lorries for all you UK peoples) too) whenever they need to and not to some kind of schedule. Also what's all this spurious crap about the lease terms of electric cars? What the heck has that got to do with the demand on the grid? People aren't going to lease an electric car and when the lease expires suddenly do without a car for a while ???!!!

It's also going to be a worldwide issue and not just a UK one. Here in Australia the grid can shut down if during summer everyone turns their airconditioner on at once let alone charge all their electric vehicles.

I think we need to be a bit more radical and start thinking of electricity as an internationally traded commodity - yes an internationally connected grid. For example electricity could be sent from the northern hemisphere to the southern hemisphere by cable to best utilize worldwide solar supply. Oil gets traded internationally. Maybe electricity could be too. A bit like an EU trading system (oh no!!)
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PostPost by: Craven » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:49 pm

Look at it this way, Annual ( 2005 ) electrical energy used in the UK is around 360 TWh.
Total Petrol used in UK 2018 = 39 million tons, Total Diesel used in UK 2018 = 39 million tons.
Get your calculators out, 1 litre of petrol = 9.1 KWh, 1 litre of petrol weighs ~ 750 grams.
Very very roughly call a Ton a metric Ton = 1000 Kgm and 1 Litre = 1 Kgm so 1 Ton = 1000 Litres.
39,000,000 tons of Petrol = 39,000,000,000 Litres,( 39 Billion ) now 1 litre gives 9.1 KWh say 10 then
in 2018 petrol provides 390,000,000,000 or 0.39 TWh, do the same for Diesel very roughly the same
0.39 TWh
Total then 0.8 TWh will be needed by battery power to replace petrol & diesel or 2 % increase in the
(2005) annual electrical energy used in the UK, and this to be done using non-fossil fuels.
A single trip of the world’s largest container ship from China to UK uses 250T a day of HFO, aver
Trip 30 days = 7500 T.

UK National Grid is not that efficient,
Total generating capacity is supplied roughly equally by renewable, nuclear, coal fired and gas fired power stations. Annual energy used in the UK is around 360 TWh (1.3 EJ), with an average load factor of 72% (i.e. 3.6×1011/(8,760 × 57×106).[needs update]
Losses
Figures are again from the 2005 SYS.
• Joule heating in cables: 857.8 MW
• Fixed losses: 266 MW (consists of corona and iron loss; can be 100 MW higher in adverse weather)
• Substation transformer heating losses: 142.4 MW
• Generator transformer heating losses: 157.3 MW
• Total losses: 1,423.5 MW (2.29% of peak demand)
Although overall losses in the national grid are low, there are significant further losses in onward electricity distribution to the consumer, causing a total distribution loss of about 7.7%
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:21 pm

Excellent perspectives, more of the reasons this is a great forum
Total consumption is where its at.
Reducing, Reusing, Recycling...
If we all lived with our consumption, likely we would not expect to drive to the store. Or repaint our car :lol: like me

“most often, lithium is found in briny underground ponds. The liquid is pumped out and left to dry in the sun“

No one is putting hydrogen fueling stations on the corner. There have been portable hydrogen fueling stations for over 10 years.
So, what if...
And, why aren’t they here...

If gas or diesel was £12 per litre. We would not be using it. Outside of our nice fuel efficient Élan.

If like may, we all had windmills and solar and some batteries. We would be just fine. Gas diesel would simply support.
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PostPost by: gherlt » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:58 pm

Craven wrote:Look at it this way, Annual ( 2005 ) electrical energy used in the UK is around 360 TWh.
Total Petrol used in UK 2018 = 39 million tons, Total Diesel used in UK 2018 = 39 million tons.
Get your calculators out, 1 litre of petrol = 9.1 KWh,
_...)
Total then 0.8 TWh will be needed by battery power to replace petrol & diesel

Not quite.
You did not take into account the efficiency of each "motor"/engine.
Seen from metric view, a petrol car uses a realistic 6l/100km=9.1kwh/l×6l=54.6kwh/100km
Usually a ICE engine in a car as an efficiency of 30 to 40%.
Diesel has higher energy density, uses less liters per100km but same amount of energy.

An electric car uses something between 15 and 20kwh/100.
So your calculations miss the efficiency gain of electric motors and energy needs would 60 to 70% less.
There is of course no gain, if electricity is generated by any fossil fuel....
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PostPost by: Craven » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:03 am

It’s far from a prefect approach and yes I had considered the efficiency factor but when you start to consider probably intractable facts like interior heating, night driving, windscreen wipers, and A/C that is power drain other than the drive train, how great is the overall advantage.
WLTP test for kwh/100km figures are some 20% more than earlier NEDC
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:19 am

Craven wrote:It’s far from a prefect approach and yes I had considered the efficiency factor but when you start to consider probably intractable facts like interior heating, night driving, windscreen wipers, and A/C that is power drain other than the drive train, how great is the overall advantage.
WLTP test for kwh/100km figures are some 20% more than earlier NEDC


If you google 'well to wheels efficiency' there are many studies that take all the overall losses for ICE and battery cars. The numbers vary, but range between 2x to 3x more efficient for a battery vehicle.
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PostPost by: Craven » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:53 pm

Well to Wheel article uses a very low ICE efficiency of 16% for it’s comparison which seems very low, but a point that seems to be missed is the apparent losses ( heat ) are not a total loss to the vehicles utility, in an EV accessories power can only come from the battery.
It does however recognize that 1Kw stored in a battery requires a generated 1.3 Kw. A Charging Efficiency factor of some 1.2 is given for a new battery, I don’t think even the battery manufacturer know how battery charging efficiency changes with battery age.
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:37 pm

Craven wrote: battery manufacturer know how battery charging efficiency changes with battery age.



I dont believe the major reduction in charge, happens until over 100,000km or a few years. The reason most companies like Tesla who use the 18650 style of battery have issues. Is polarity switching. When one 18650 battery decides to flip its anode and cathode. It disrupts the flow of electricity. Hence rebuilt battery packs being £2000, not the £6500 new. Similar to lead acid. When the plates are worn down, they disrupt the alternator, and ultimately the flow though in modern cars. Their computer.

Calb batteries will have the similar cell swapping. Much more easy do remove from battery circuit than a big Tesla 18650 pack.
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