Lotus Elan

New electric Lotus, old batteries

PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:12 pm

https://vid.pr0gramm.com/2019/12/04/210 ... 30f4e1.mp4

Wonder when hydrogen will get sorted
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PostPost by: Bombay Racing Green » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:59 am

Standby for gasps of horror! I?m getting my Model 3 in February (they didn?t say which February but hey ho). Even the standard range one has more than enough range for my needs and I have a 100 mile round trip commute. I will be charging at home every other night from a wall box. No more trips to the Gas/petrol station.

Hydrogen (especially hydrogen under pressure) will always have storage and transportation issues. It?s the smallest molecule and, like love, will always find a way (out). Fine for highly regulated haulers and industry but for the general public maybe not. I recently read Ben Rich?s Skunk Works. I highly recommend it. The famed Lockheed engineer Kelly Johnson tasked Rich to investigate the possibility of a Hydrogen powered plane. After several months they gave up as it was too dangerous, even for them. Granted larger volumes and higher pressures. The transmission of electricity is easy by comparison if it is upkept correctly. Residents of NorCal will be aware of the horrors after the wildfires in 2018. Pacific Gas and electricity hadn?t maintained the transmission lines to the extent that the line hangers were over sixty years old and had worn away. Lines dropped, sparks flew and lives were devastated.

I appreciate that battery EVs are known to catch fire. However, I believe 70 gasoline cars catch fire a DAY in the US alone but that never gets reported. I suspect the video was before a gathering or event. I?m sure a gas station before/after a LOG would look much the same.
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:48 pm

There is also the question of where the hydrogen comes from. The majority of commercial production is from the steam reformation of natural gas. Not surprisingly the oil majors are keen on this as it gives them a ready market for their products. The process isn't low carbon, so needs some form of carbon capture. Electrolysis of water is another route, but the round trip efficiency of electricity->hydrogen through electrolysis then hydrogen->electricity in a fuel cell is much lower than lithium ion batteries can achieve - so why not just use batteries?

Full disclosure, although a petrol head all my life, I plan to buy a Tesla model Y when it becomes available in the UK as my daily driver.
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PostPost by: Craven » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:16 pm

Don?t take ?Time? out of any efficiency calculations, Hydrogen refills in seconds.
BTW Tesla Battery pack weighs about 500Kgs.
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:35 pm

Craven wrote:Don?t take ?Time? out of any efficiency calculations, Hydrogen refills in seconds.
BTW Tesla Battery pack weighs about 500Kgs.


I believe the Toyota Mirai is the current state of the art of hydrogen powered vehicles. It is approximately the same size as a Tesla model 3, and weighs 1850kg. The Tesla model 3 in AWD performance trim weighs 1847kg.

The Mirai takes approximately 5 minutes to fill its two hydrogen storage tanks to 10,000 psi. There is no expectation that it will be possible to do this at home, and obvious safety questions remain about transporting hydrogen around at 10,000 psi in the back of your car.

As the efficiency of lithium ion batteries continues to improve, I think it likely that the remaining car manufacturers supporting fuel cell / hydrogen will move to batteries. Of the 20 or so manufacturers that produced fuel cell concept cars, only Toyota, Honda and Hyundai remain committed to the technology, and the volumes of cars produced are very low.

I guess time will tell.
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PostPost by: h20hamelan » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:09 pm

Formula E certainly improved mid last year
When the race technology finds us in the next few years.

GM has some neat battery technology.

I am very close to adding a Tesla truck to the towing fleet. For towing a trailer as most are within 60 miles, or 120 round trip. Sort of hoping Boy Trudeau turns up some funds for small business and renewable energy.

Hopefully by the end of the year, I will be much closer to building an electric 7.
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PostPost by: Craven » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:53 pm

Point about ?Time? is simply when a vehicle is being charged it?s out of service.
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PostPost by: Bombay Racing Green » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:38 pm

Yes, charge times are an issue if you need to do very long journeys in the shortest possible time. Everyone?s needs are different. I can comfortably do 2 days of commuting before I have to do a full charge. However, I will be plugging it in every night and topping up the the charge to around 80% to really cosset the batteries. So it?ll be out of service when I?m asleep. I can deal with that. If I have to do a long journey I?ll be stopping anyway as I have a. young kids and b. a bladder range of an hour.

Tesla?s core competency is battery technology. They are so far out in front of anyone else it?s not funny anymore and they continue to extend their lead. The acquisition Maxwell technologies last year does not mean they are putting super capacitors into their cars (nor flux capacitors either). Maxwell had developed a dry battery production method which increased the performance of current batteries. I believe the solvents used in battery production are truly awful and will catch fire if you even look at them funny.

The cybertruck is a game changer. Pick ups haven?t really changed that much design wise. The folded paper design does away with panel stamping machines. Stainless steel does away with paint shops. The transparent aluminum windscreen potentially does away with wipers. Incredibly tough and scratch resistant. Think permanent rainex. Amazing stuff. Initially developed for the seeker heads of the AIM 9 missile (aka the Sidewinder). Seating for six. Secure flatbed. Onboard compressor for the air suspension which can be used for pneumatic tools (I?m wary of that one. I don?t think it?ll be powerful for most tools). Onboard power supply for electrical tools. Pick ups or Utes are more of a US/Australian thing but I like it. All sci-fi films will have a cybertruck somewhere in the background from now on. All free advertising.

Both Nissan and Toyota have recently claimed that they will be focusing on hybrids technology. The reason given by a spokesman was that women don?t like EVs because the charging cables are too heavy! It has nothing at all to do with Carlos Ghosn (a huge proponent for an EV future) disappearing in a cello case. Ho hum.
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PostPost by: billwill » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:47 am

I've read of a technology that stores hydrogen in some sort of liquid cells.

I didn't read & absorb all the details, so I don't recall whether those were under a high pressure like 10,000 psi or whether re-fueling involved simply changing the whole liquid cell unit rather than 'transfusing' liquid from a storage vat to the built in vat in the car.

However it did seem that that technology would remove many of the problems mentioned in the above messages.

NB there's only yeah much lithium on this planet, but there's lots of hydrogen.
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PostPost by: StressCraxx » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:48 am

billwill wrote:I've read of a technology that stores hydrogen in some sort of liquid cells.

I didn't read & absorb all the details, so I don't recall whether those were under a high pressure like 10,000 psi or whether re-fueling involved simply changing the whole liquid cell unit rather than 'transfusing' liquid from a storage vat to the built in vat in the car.

However it did seem that that technology would remove many of the problems mentioned in the above messages.

NB there's only yeah much lithium on this planet, but there's lots of hydrogen.


Yes there's lots of hydrogen available, for fuel cell cars. One of the more efficient ways is to extract the hydrogen from light hydrocarbon process streams via pressure swing adsorbtion (PSA). Honda will lease you a Honda Clarity for $379/month if you live or work near a hydrogen fueling station. I test drove one about a year and a half ago. I was ready to lease one, but the fueling stations were not readily accessible to me(there's the catch). The car performs much like a pure electric but only takes a few minutes to fuel with hydrogen. The fuel cell stack uses hydrogen to make electricity and power the car's electric motors. The only emissions are some water condensate that drains out the back of the car. I was really impressed by the performance, handling and quiet operation. The fuel tank holds 5.46 kg of hydrogen at 10000psi give a range of 360 miles. One of my colleagues at leases one, his home is near a fueling station.

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https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-f ... comparison
Pressure Swing Adsorption
https://www.linde-engineering.com/en/im ... 9-6130.pdf

https://www.linde-engineering.com/en/im ... 9-6130.pdf
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:17 am

billwill wrote:I've read of a technology that stores hydrogen in some sort of liquid cells.

I didn't read & absorb all the details, so I don't recall whether those were under a high pressure like 10,000 psi or whether re-fueling involved simply changing the whole liquid cell unit rather than 'transfusing' liquid from a storage vat to the built in vat in the car.

However it did seem that that technology would remove many of the problems mentioned in the above messages.

NB there's only yeah much lithium on this planet, but there's lots of hydrogen.


Three ways to store hydrogen for use in a vehicle - as a cryogenic liquid at -253C (compact and efficient - used by space rockets), as a high pressure gas (used by Toyota) or absorbed into another material at much lower pressure than pressurised gas storage. All have their pluses and minuses, cryo hydrogen is obviously impractical for use in a vehicle unless you are Spacex. High pressure storage has safety concerns and the tanks are heavy with limited capacity. Absorbed into another material (currently as a metal hydride) has some promise, but the material is heavy and expensive, has to heated to release the hydrogen and is slow to absorb - 'fill-up' times are no faster than charging a battery.

Lithium availability is an issue, but neither lithium or hydrogen are available in their free sate as they are both too reactive and have to be separated from their compounds to be used. Lithium isn't 'used up' in a battery, but can be recovered and reused at the end of the battery life. It remains to be seen whether exploration and supply of lithium can keep up with battery demand.
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:50 am

StressCraxx wrote:
Yes there's lots of hydrogen available, for fuel cell cars. One of the more efficient ways is to extract the hydrogen from light hydrocarbon process streams via pressure swing adsorbtion (PSA).


'Light hydrocarbon process streams' are unfortunately derived from fossil fuels with all the issues of sustainability and carbon capture. It would be more efficient to burn the 'light hydrocarbons' in a power station and use the electricity to charge batteries in a car than go through the intermediate step of producing and distributing hydrogen to then produce electricity from a fuel cell in a car.

A significant advantage of battery vehicles is that the distribution mechanism already exists.
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PostPost by: Bombay Racing Green » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:37 am

I can’t think of one public hydrogen filling station in Ireland. Everywhere has a electrical socket. I’m afraid hydrogen is Betamax of fuels. Good in many respects but niche.

The lithium in a lithium ION battery is salt suspended in solvent. It’s not a solid lump of metal. In a 18650 cylindrical cell it amounts to a teaspoon of solvent (again not a solid lump of lithium). It’s actually nickel which will be the limiting material. Let’s not forget colbalt. It’s mostly mined in Africa by dubious means. Tesla is trying to move away from it and has reduced its content in their batteries. What no one mentions is how the sulfur is removed from oil to produce “clean” diesel and petrol. Vast amounts of cobalt. There’s also manganese. Even once land based sources are depleted there’s still huge amounts of it on the seabed. Remember the Hughes Glomar Explorer cover story?

As was pointed out by Andy earlier, these can all be recycled at the end of the batteries useful life (old lithium battery are being used for solar energy storage). Try that with petrol/diesel/hydrogen etc.
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PostPost by: billwill » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:15 pm

https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility
There were 32.0 million cars (82.2 per cent), 4.1 million LGVs (10.6 per cent), 0.50 million HGVs (1.3 per cent), 1.3 million motorcycles (3.5 per cent), 0.15 million buses & coaches (0.4 per cent), and 0.77 million other vehicles (2.0 per cent) licensed at the end of September 2019.


Is there enough Lithium on Earth to power 32 million cars ? I doubt it

Is there enough Hydrogen on earth to power 32 million cars? Yup, Solar and Wind power can be used to extract Hydrogen with zero carbon footprint, efficiency is less important as the energy source is free.

Is there enough (whatever is needed) to make the solar cells & wind turbines to convert water to hydrogen? Dunno yet.
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PostPost by: Citromike » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:36 pm

I live in San Diego and have driven both the Clarity and Mirai - but didn’t buy either because there’s only one station in our county of 4500 sq miles. The situation has not changed in 2 years.

Two other points -

One, the refilling can theoretically be done quickly but like other liquified gases, hydrogen is extremely cold and the fill hoses and nozzles can freeze even in warm weather.

Two, fuel stack conversion power/speed is quite limited in the Mirai and the car is easily able to “outrun” its supply, so is governed making it much more sluggish than the equivalent Lexus.

I’m sticking with my Honda Insight Gen1 hybrid, Fiat 500e, and 2019 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid as the best choices for now, today (Tesla Cybertruck is on order).
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