Lotus Elan

JPS Europa value

PostPost by: jimj » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:36 am

In your opinion, preferably based on fact! what do you think. A genuine ex-factory documented JPS Europa special twincam, next to it, in identical really nice condition, a JPS liveried Europa special twincam that left the factory in a different colour originally.
What would be the difference in price?
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PostPost by: trw99 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:17 am

Honestly Jim?

What someone would be prepared to pay for originality.

I guess it would depend on what the buyer wanted. If just a fun driving tool, then the car that fits that bill. If a collector/originality nut/investor, then they'd go for the factory JPS and be prepared to pay what, an extra 5-10%? Particularly if the provenance is good too.

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PostPost by: Certified Lotus » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:28 am

Assuming it's in great condition, The original painted car would always be worth more. How much more would be based on the condition of the paint. Without photos very difficult to assess.
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PostPost by: Maulden7 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 am

Are you referring to one of the numbered / limited edition JPS Europa T/C Specials, or a non numbered / limited edition standard production car painted in JPS colours?

There is a significant difference in value between these two, & the rarely available numbered / limited edition cars are rather more highly sort after, & hence more valuable when compared to any other Europa.

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PostPost by: jimj » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:24 am

No, I`m not suggesting (in this hypothetical question) that the "proper" numbered (limited to 100?) JPS one had original paint, just that each was in similar very good condition.
The reason I ask, and you may recall from earlier this year, is that a well funded pal was seeking a Sprint and a Europa. I put him in touch with a member and he bought that immaculate Sprint. He`s delighted with it.
Still keeping half an eye out on his behalf, I`d recommended that the best of the best Europas was a genuine JPS special twincam and I was wondering how big a premium was warranted. I`m guessing, just guessing, that if you want and can afford the best, maybe it`s worth paying 10% extra or even more.
As he`s away at the moment I was going to look at this one on his behalf today; https://www.berlinetta-auctions.co.uk/w ... pecial-jps but the seller has had a pre-auction offer too good to refuse. Que sera.
Jim (honestly Jim!)
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PostPost by: theelanman » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:20 pm

Jim
there was one in Chapel en le Frith........
I'll see if I can find the ad
cheers
G
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PostPost by: theelanman » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:24 pm

having just had a look at your ad.......why not have the other one.....red S2 for ?9k......
looks like a bargain to me
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PostPost by: lottex » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:19 pm

Having owned several JPS Specials, any of the limited edition cars were fitted with a plaque on the dashboard. I didn't spot it in the photo and frankly this is not something you'd misplace when replacing the dash! So the claim to be one of the 100 limited edition cars is questionable . The car is also described as having had a superb repaint yet strangely all the visible washers and nuts in the luggage compartment , have been painted black too, which looks terrible. It would be interesting to know the original registration number as any early Special should be on an L plate (and not a K) why the weird personal registration number?
If you're not a purist this could be the car for you as it's been modified and lacks correct detail, for example spider chassis, modified suspension, no air box, wrong type servo, wrong type side repeaters and the wrong grain dashboard, centre console is wrong with extra switches etc
Whilst the car looks attractive, Europa's can be notoriously difficult to sell so I wouldn't tend to get carried away with this particular car unless it's a very attractive price. Really good cars seem to peak in the high 20's these days.
with the trade asking a bit more. Hope this helps.
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PostPost by: JimE » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:27 pm

For me I would always go for an original unmolested Europa and I am one of the lucky ones who owns one. If there was a limited edition JPS in original condition then I can see where a premium might be had. But if you look at the one that UK Sportscars are selling with a big plug on the fact that it is the 40th made and a dealer badge to prove it, when you look at the car there is very little original about it although I'm sure that with all the Banks Engineering work done to it, it drives great. If I was given the choice I would not swap my 1975 car for a 1972 JPS one. And in case the purists comment, I have the original steering wheel, speakers and alloy wheels. Just can't do anything about the extra switch on the centre console!
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PostPost by: jimj » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Well I didn`t get to inspect the Berlinetta auctions one, obviously. I should add that they are blameless and less than pleased that the owner has done a pre-auction deal. I did have a long list of questions, now never to be answered.
Gareth, I don`t think the red ?9k one quite meets the criteria! He`s not hung up on a limited edition JPS, that`s just my advice . He wants a REALLY NICE twincam.
Jim
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PostPost by: tedtaylor » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:59 pm

Wow! What an absolutely beautiful "clone" JPS colored Europa Special. It's a shame the lister goes through great length to explain probable factory numbering and date ranges to hopefully include this as a legitimate JPS numbered car (one of the hundred), however THERE IS NO BADGE.
Having personally owned two myself (#185 and #059) the individually numbered dash placques make all the difference, otherwise they are just like their plentiful counter parts out there. I know I sold #185 with easily a 15% to 20% premium based upon the presence of the badge alone. I currently have #059 and will certainly capitalize upon that if/when it is offered for sale in the future.
Unfortunately in today's modern technologically advanced world, the talk of reproducing such badges has been tossed around and actually scares me to death, since that will undermine the true original examples out there. That's why the Europa registry is critical to tracking what is genuine and what is reproduced.
I know this is a powderkeg topic, and glad i'm only just posting to the Elan forum. God forbid, the Europa forum members chime in. Food for the dogs!
Now I'll duck the bullets and arrows about to fly... :)
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PostPost by: 512BB » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:15 pm

I own 691 LOT. Look it up, its in all the books. A one owner, completely original, 40k mile Europa. Engine just rebuilt by Miles Wilkins. Not sure if that is a good thing. All bills, MOT'S from new, service books, etc. I could even get hold of the log of every drop of fuel that has ever been put into it.

If this car might be of interest to your mate Jim, put him in touch with me. I am very easy to deal with............ but not if you happen to be a messer.

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PostPost by: JimE » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:34 pm

512BB wrote:I own 691 LOT. Look it up, its in all the books. A one owner, completely original, 40k mile Europa. Engine just rebuilt by Miles Wilkins. Not sure if that is a good thing. All bills, MOT'S from new, service books, etc. I could even get hold of the log of every drop of fuel that has ever been put into it.

If this car might be of interest to your mate Jim, put him in touch with me. I am very easy to deal with............ but not if you happen to be a messer.

Leslie

Peter Fouracres old car. I never thought he would part with it but explained to me how he came to fall out of love with it. Sounds like a great car after some fettling. Jim
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PostPost by: denicholls2 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:23 pm

jimj wrote:I`d recommended that the best of the best Europas was a genuine JPS special twincam and I was wondering how big a premium was warranted.


This is where I (and I suspect a majority of Europa owners) will lose you. The Twincam is a great engine for the Elan, but not a match made in heaven for the Europa. Styling is also iffy. Yes, the Twinks do command premium prices, but that's not based on intrinsic value or performance. Admittedly, Europa ownership is split between Twincam and S1/S2 advocates. I personally believe that if you're picking the "true" Europa, it has to be the S1, generally regarded as the prettiest of Europas because it came without warts. It's also the lightest due to the bonded chassis. If I were your buddy, I'd seek a rustless or well-replaced chassis S1 because like the Elan, the early models are rare and pure.

In my experience (subjective again), the S2 with Hermes kit is the quickest "original" Europa. My dyno sheet will tell you why; though peak horsepower is similar to, say, a JPS, the torque curve of the 1565 Renault embarrasses the Twincam's. And the S2 still weighs a lot less than the Twincam and will spin for the stars on a stock crankshaft.

Fastest overall in a straight line? GKN-47D.

Fastest with period bits? S2 (for the "Federal" 1565 Renault engine over the 1470) with Gordini Crossflow head.

Closest to Zetech Elan concept in a Europa? Pick your preferred model and install a 20-valve injected Toyota Blacktop 4AGE. Drive it fast for 200,000 miles between rebuilds, and the oil doesn't leak out of it.

As to the comparison you asked about, RUN AWAY from the alleged JPS. It's less valuable to any knowledgeable Europa fan than a bone-stock basic Twincam.
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PostPost by: mark030358 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:21 am

There is another JPS special Europa for sale at a purveyor of Lotii "darn sarth", UK Sports Cars. Looks to me to that it MAY be a converted left hooker (from all the paper work and invoices), but I can't be certain and it does not mention this in the advert. But one sales invoice mentions LHD dash.... paintwork by Banks, so that will be excellent.

Cheers
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