post restoration shakedown and ignominy

PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:35 pm

Take the dissy out complete...

John :wink:
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PostPost by: richardcox_lotus » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:38 pm

That's what I've been trying to avoid.

Pain in the ass isn't it?
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PostPost by: nebogipfel » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:04 pm

jimj wrote:I`d agree that the servo is something I`d rather be without but I`m very keen to keep the car absolutely standard, even to the point of not adding that servo modification, never mind bypassing it. I know nothing about carburation but as it won`t start at all with anything more than a little choke leads me to believe (think?) that...I don`t know what.
Thanks as ever,
Jim


While throwing things away I'd also dispense with the ballast system and run with a 12v coil. Also give the points and condenser flying lessons and fit either a cheap Powerspark unit in the distributor or an expensive Aldon Ignitor :wink:

None of which is original of course .......

I agree that it's likely to be sparky gremlins. You need to sort the LT side of the ignition first and then go on from there in a methodical fashion, that is LT components, HT components then on to fueling and carbs'

When you are confident the ignition is doing what it should then is the time to move on to the Webers. Bear the leaks in the vacuum system in mind because it's a common cause of missing, popping and banging.
John

No longer active on here, I value my privacy.
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PostPost by: jimj » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:34 pm

Thanks for everyone`s comments. I went to 3 places in search of a ballast resistor today without success. The first spare I bought to keep in the boot was a spare coil and I realised this morning that it`s a non-ballast 12v so thought I`ll fit that tomorrow. I see you agree, so I will.
Jim
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PostPost by: jimj » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:28 am

Back to the servo, on the diagram I assume the spring referred to is the one between 63c and 62c?
Gareth, could I call round and pick up that spring sometime?
Jim
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PostPost by: theelanman » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:50 am

Jim
yes no problems......
we're doing a 'classic charity run Sunday if you're free.....and fancy it (peak district run that is)

I shall be at home from Friday to Tuesday as Im off to the Le Mans Classic on the Wednesday for a week...
failing that I'll be back on the 5th July....and I'll be at home for the rest of that week.....

cheers
Gareth
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PostPost by: MyLotus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:04 am

theelanman, before I ditch the servo, would appreciate a picture of the notorious replacement servo spring.

Regards,

Alain
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PostPost by: billwill » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:31 am

jimj wrote:Just been on the classiccarjourneys uk classic weekend but that`s another story... coming soon ! We were eager to shakedown our newly purchased Sprint with only 100 miles covered since the rebuild. We added 200+ miles noting the carburation and/or ignition issues; It`s embarrassingly difficult to start requiring a quarter choke and don`t touch the accelerator. As far as I know, which is not very far, this is the opposite of normal. Plus at light, steady speeds it`s a bit sort of not quite misfiring but clears with a cough and pulls really strongly. Another issue is the brakes are just, only just, sticking on but squealing annoyingly almost all the time. As they were, supposedly, just completely recommisioned this is more annoying. But, and I`m coming to the ignominy, being towed the last mile home, there was no squealing which points to the servo????
So, a mile from home we seemed to run out of petrol, a pal arrived with a can in 5 minutes and it wasn`t that. The engine would cough as it tried to start, so there must be a spark, and petrol was pumping through, but no go. Investigation at home showed a blue wire really hot connected to that thingy in the pic. attached to the coil, with the black wire attached to the other terminal. There is, now disconnected, a blue wire connected to the starter solenoid. Removing both wires and attaching the black straight to the coil and all is well.
So, what is the thingy? what is the blue wire? why was it melting?shorting? and what`s wrong with the servo?
Jim



In that photo, are the two connecting tangs that we see in fact just two ends of a single piece of brass? in other words are they bot the same electrical connection?

If so and if you have not re-arranged the wiring, I don't quite see why it has two wires on that point. One wire should go off to the ignition switch and the other side of the resistor is bolted to the coil terminal. A black wire would normally be an EARTH wire and that is the last thing you would want connected to the other wire as it would be a dead short from ignition switch to earth and indeed the WIRE would get extremely hot or even melt or burst into flame.

Assuming however that the black wire is supposed to be there the symptom of the ballast resistor getting extremely hot and melting the insulation on its feed wire would seem to indicate that the ignition coil has failed internally and the low-volt primary is shorting to the metal case (which is earthed).
Bill Williams

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PostPost by: theelanman » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:44 am

this was from the last thread IIRC
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PostPost by: billwill » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:54 am

To which terminal of the starter solenoid is the blue wire connected?

From the description it appears that it is supposed to be the starting feed from the same feed as the starter motor and it should go DIRECT to the coil terminal NOT to the ballast resistor input. Then it would supply the full battery voltage to the coil (but under starter-motor-running conditions that nominal 12volt battery would have been dragged down to about 9 volts).

If the wire from the solenoid was connected as you described to the input of the ballast resistor it would have no significant effect.

Your wiring colours seem to be screwed up, the feed from the ignition switch to the ballast resistor should (I think) be white, but yours is evidently black, a great recipe for disastrous mistakes, because as I said above BLACK is normally for Earth leads.

However there is one possibility where i perceive that feed might be black; on earlier systems the 'ballast resistor was often in the form of a wire, not made from the usual copper, but some other metal with a higher resistance than copper. I do not know what colour they used for such a ballast wire. It always struck me as a bad engineering idea as it will generate heat within the wiring loom whenever the engine is running. Just possibly someone has fitted that visible ballast resistor even though a ballast wire was already installed. You need an ohm meter and access to both ends of the black wire to confirm such a diagnosis.
Bill Williams

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PostPost by: Spyder fan » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:59 am

one wire should be direct to the terminal on the coil, this wire should be from the solenoid to allow a 12v boost upon startup. the other wire should be from the ignition switch to the ballast resistor to allow the coil to run off 9v once the engine is started. its actually an ingenious way of overcoming the voltage drop apparent when the starter motor is cranking and aids startup. read the description i posted earlier from Burton Power.
Kindest regards

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PostPost by: billwill » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:05 pm

REVISED:
Anyway, from all the description, I think what happened (and is still perhaps happening) is that the base tang of that ballast resistor touched down onto the metal case of the ignition coil. You were then feeding 12 volts to the ballast resistor with nothing on the earth side, so it would conduct about 4 times as much current as usual and get very hot and the black wire would also get very hot.

Take off the ballast resistor and look underneath for scorch marks. Then wrap high temperature insulation, such as silicone rubber, around the exposed bit, leaving a clear patch for where it will connect to the coil terminal. Put it back on the coil terminal.

Then connect your wires as nature (?) intended, blue direct to the coil terminal and black to one end of that U shaped input of the ballast resistor with nothing on the other end of that U.
Last edited by billwill on Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: alan71 » Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:56 pm

The ballast resistor will get hot enough to melt the insulation, as mentioned in the workshop manual.

Alan.
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PostPost by: jimj » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:40 pm

Thanks as ever to all, and thankfully, I have a firm course of action, I hate too many variables and I`m a firm believer in only doing potential breakdown or safety related items myself when I`m 100% certain of what I`m doing.
I had bought a 12 volt coil as a spare so fitted it (temporarily?) today, the engine fired up OK, actually more easily but I haven`t been anywhere. I was intending to blank off the vacuum to the servo and see whether the brakes still squealed to identify the problem. But, changing the coil I could see that brake fluid had pooled below it, apparently leaking from the master cylinder cap. The level was down, worryingly. Accordingly, not knowing why, or much, I`ve booked the car in for Thursday to have the whole brake system looked at. It`s very disappointing and one of the reasons I wanted to be in control of completing the restoration. Coil/ignition type failure I can understand but having supposedly overhauled brakes cause trouble is, frankly, unacceptable. I did promise no come back sold as seen and I`ll keep my word and move on. C`est la vie as they say in France or oh bugger as we say in England.
Also despite my determination to keep the car exactly to standard spec. I have today spent even more and ordered the 123 electronic ignition system and booked the car in at a Weber/Dellorto specialist with a rolling road, somewhere I`ve used before and recommended. You can`t beat having these things done absolutely properly then leave `em alone. It saves money and heartache long term.
You may be aware of the unusual terms under which we bought the car, which were less than ideal. I didn`t notice the frayed seat belts which was my fault but the hood was not available for viewing and is also tatty. All in all, having paid top money we find ourselves spending quite a bit more which I`m really p***ed off about but the simple fact is we`re really glad we bought the car...........................................so far !
Jim
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PostPost by: Spyder fan » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:08 pm

Jim,
Don't lose heart, you have a car that is irreplaceably special to your family; these problems annoying though they are can be resolved with a little work. This is a car to keep for years and years, maybe forever, anything you spend on it, be it time or money or both will be well spent and enjoyed by you and all that see the car on the road.

I'm sure everyone here wishes you well.

Chin up! or Bon courage!
Kindest regards

Alan Thomas
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