K series head gaskets

[paddy]

Not Elan-related, and only marginally Lotus-related, but I thought someone here might know.

My dad bought a Rover with a K-series 1.6 engine recently. It had a head gasket replacement a few hundred miles ago (before he bought it) and apparently the head was skimmed at that time too. Now he took it to someone to investigate some poor running and was told that compression is low on two cylinders. Total mileage on the engine is about 50,000. There has been no overheating he is aware of.

So I'm wondering what the underlying causes are for the reknowned head gasket fragility on the K-series, and whether or not it is likely a gasket would fail again so soon after replacement. Is it just that the gaskets have a limited life - and a replacement will effectively cure a failure - or is there some other problem that is exhibited by certain engines that make them vulnerable to repeated failure?

Apart from some obvious checks - such as valve clearances - any suggestions for diagnosis without lifting the head?

All insights welcomed.

Thanks - Paddy

[jimj]

My 2 previous Elises had K series engines and I never had a problem though I was mindful of the stories I`d heard. Evidently, over time there is slight water loss and if not noticed results in overheating, blown head gasket, and often warped head. It may well be that just skimming the head rather than replacing it wasn`t good enough.
Sorry.
Jim

[miked]

Paddy,

I know a guy who looks after a lot of these for a track day company. He says it is the instaled height of the liners in the block that causes the failure. New gaskets only being a band aid. He says that they are fixed by being re installed and the height of each one being the same. He says the original can be at different heights. I dont know but this guy keep these cars on the road (track).

Mike

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Paddy,

I know a guy who looks after a lot of these for a track day company. He says it is the instaled height of the liners in the block that causes the failure. New gaskets only being a band aid. He says that they are fixed by being re installed and the height of each one being the same. He says the original can be at different heights. I dont know but this guy keep these cars on the road (track).

Mike

That's what I've been told as well (by an ex-Rover engine guy)
I don't know how or how well it works but I've also heard of a "magic" cylinder head gasket fix.
I've heard it called the Land Rover or Range Rover fix or something similar.
When the problem was covered in a Top Gear or some other program Rover denied having a problem & Land Rover admitted to it & were providing a solution.
That's going back a few years & my memory could be playing tricks on me
There must be a whole bundle of info about this on an Elise forum somewhere?

Cheers
John

[Old English White]

Paddy ,
To make it shorter , when changing gasket , keep going and put a PR kit .
This was developped for the Freelander and try to solve problem of thermal shock that cause with time gasket failure ...
Eliseparts proposal (others are making their own , an upgrade of the Land Rover product)
http://www.eliseparts.com/products.php?product=207
Christian.

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Paddy ,
To make it shorter , when changing gasket , keep going and put a PR kit .
This was developped for the Freelander and try to solve problem of thermal shock that cause with time gasket failure ...
Eliseparts proposal (others are making their own , an upgrade of the Land Rover product)
http://www.eliseparts.com/products.php?product=207
Christian.

Ah "Freelander", that was the name I was searching for Christian
John

[rgh0]

The problem with the K series is the width of the land that the cylinder liners sit on in the block, it is to narrow and is over stressed. It is only about 1.5mm wide and over time the cylinder liners recess into the block loosing compression on the head gasket - I have heard that 60000 km is the typical problem point so 50000 miles is good going .

Replacing the head gasket as many mechanics do does not solve the problem and it soon fails again.

You need to remove the liners, machine the block deck and refit the liners with the correct protrusion to get the right compression on the head gasket and then you should get another 60000km out of the engine

regards
Rohan

[paddy]

OK, thanks for all the replies. As usual, a mine of information.

This sounds consistent with an initial small loss of compression but no other observable problems. I don't know but I assume the two cylinders with low compression are adjacent.

It also sounds like looking for a secondhand engine isn't likely to be that fruitful either, since these will also have exceeded their useful life, with unknown maintenance history.

The full repair doesn't sound too expensive if you're not paying for any labour but still, in comparison with the value of the car, of questionable value.

Shame he didn't ask me before buying the car

Paddy

[richardcox_lotus]

I believe Freelanders do use stronger (thicker head gasketes) as well as metal dowels rather than original plastic-based rubbish. This is because when Ford bought Landrover a few years ago, they put proper fixes in rather than Rover Group nonsense.

All hearsay of course.

If you log onto seloc's site, or access their technical wiki pages - http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Head_gasket_failure then there is more info (From an Elise perspective)

Rgds
Richard

[rgh0]

A thicker head gasket with more recovery as it loose compression around the liners would certainly help the engine life. Whether it can recover an engine with recessed liners probably depends on the extent of the recession that has occured to date and how linear the recession is across the block. The specification for protusion of the liners cover both absolute amount and variation between adjacent cylinders.

An engine builder friend who knows more about Elise and K series ( and Elites and Climaxes as well as Elans and twinks and a range of mgs in addition) as I do around Elans and twin cams says the only real fix he has found is the do the remachining as I have described.

cheers
Rohan

[jono]

Concur with Rohan on this.

There is really only one authority on these engines IMHO - Dave Andrews of DVA power in Milton Keynes, one of, if not the acknowledge K guru and holder of the highest specific output for a tuned K series

My seven had a 1.4 K which I upgraded to a 1.8, done by Dave Andrews. He always says the liner height is critical and that they need to protrude 4 thou (ISTR) from the deck of the block. He always fits steel dowels and a Payen gasket and has never had a single hg gasket failure in over 50 engines and most are used on track.

The engine he built for me was a delight.

Jon

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Concur with Rohan on this.

There is really only one authority on these engines IMHO - Dave Andrews of DVA power in Milton Keynes, one of, if not the acknowledge K guru and holder of the highest specific output for a tuned K series

My seven had a 1.4 K which I upgraded to a 1.8, done by Dave Andrews. He always says the liner height is critical and that they need to protrude 4 thou (ISTR) from the deck of the block. He always fits steel dowels and a Payen gasket and has never had a single hg gasket failure in over 50 engines and most are used on track.

The engine he built for me was a delight.

Jon

The posts mentioning the relationship of the sleeve to deck height & the engineeing approach to correct repair are the things that I have been told.
Considering the extent of the problem no manufacturer would be able to afford such warrenty costs when a job would have to be done.
I can well understand Ford's attitude, having bought into an unresolved problem that nobody was interested in doing anything about. I bet the sparks flew in Longbridge & that they gave the guys there a much heavier hammering than BMW ever trusted themselves to do
I can well imagine that orders were given to provide a fix that would not bankrupt the company, hence the Cylinder head Gasked with additional Vitamins.
As far as I know the problem arose with going to the increased capacity of 1,8 Liter so the narrower land width between the cylinders must have been the "Straw that broke the Camels back"

How did you upgrade your K from 1,4 to 1,8 Jon; Bore or Stroke?

Cheers
John

[Jason1]

Hi

I worked on a few 'K series' engines back in the day, working on 2-3 year old used car dealer cars. I remember at least 2 occasions when we replaced alternators to find that the fault was caused by the coolant leaking out the head gasket onto the alternator. We only removed one of the heads and found that the leak had corroded a deep groove into the top face of the engine block. We made enquiries within the trade and was told that there was problems with the early head gaskets and that later cars would not be a problem. We were told to expect to change early head gaskets around 50,000 miles, so advised customers to keep clear of these cars.

I spoke to a Lotus factory mechanic about this and he said they knew of no such problem as all their engines were 'beefed up'.

I don't know if this is any help?

Jason

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Hi

I worked on a few 'K series' engines back in the day, working on 2-3 year old used car dealer cars. I remember at least 2 occasions when we replaced alternators to find that the fault was caused by the coolant leaking out the head gasket onto the alternator. We only removed one of the heads and found that the leak had corroded a deep groove into the top face of the engine block. We made enquiries within the trade and was told that there was problems with the early head gaskets and that later cars would not be a problem. We were told to expect to change early head gaskets around 50,000 miles, so advised customers to keep clear of these cars.

I spoke to a Lotus factory mechanic about this and he said they knew of no such problem as all their engines were 'beefed up'.

I don't know if this is any help?

Jason

Hi Jason,

This will sound rude, which is definately not my intention, but speaking frankly I feel that Rover were telling everybody the same load of "Bollox" at that time & with the management system as it was plus the demeaner of the work force, empty promises were a "face saver"
All a real shame really because in concept the K was a very clever but flawed design, but there were no problems that some continued development could have alleviated.
RIP Rover

Cheers
John

[jono]

Hi John,

My engine was upgraded using the existing head which is common to all of the 16v K series engines be they 1.4, 1.6 or 1.8.

The 1.4 and 1.6 are the same stroke and the 1.8 is longer stroke but using the same bore as the 1.6. Dave built up my engine using a 1.6 block and, ISTR, 1.8 MG Trophy pistons and rods.

Jon