Lotus Elan

Knockoff/on spinner tool

PostPost by: mac5777 » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:03 pm

Hi Seaandmoor, I purchased 2 of the thrust rings that were offered on EBay. I have decided to make up new thrust rings that will be thicker and if it works, I have a tool for you to try again on your wheels with new rings. Now I have an excuse to play around in the garage again.

Sarto
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PostPost by: Elanintheforest » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:54 am

Hi Sarto
The two sizes with the interchangable bits sounds perfect. I'd only be using them in the workshop, so a bit of a fiddle to change them over from Jag to Elite size isn't a problem. I'll take a hammer and a roll of duct tape (to protect the spinner) if I need to change a wheel on the road.

I'll email you direct for costs etc.

Mark
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:10 am

Mark, it has turned out that it will be real easy to use the two eared tool on either car. I just tried to fit the grey plastic ring into the tool without the red plastic liner and it fits right in without any effort. i used the red liner as a compression fit to permanently lock the grey ring in place for the 42MM size spinners only. See photo
That means you can carry just one tool with you on the road whichever car you take out. For your Elite, drop in the grey ring without the red liner and add the chrome nut. For the Jaguar, you remove the grey ring, insert the bigger red liners and take off the chrome nut and you are good to go with your Jaguar.
Just stuff the tool and the few pieces in a bag and drop it in the boot. Leave the hammer and duct tape home. You'll have what you need, just in case you need to change a tire on the road. And remember to throw in your torque wrench or breaker bar. Knowing what torque without beating on the spinner or car body with a hammer is what it is all about. With the two eared spinners, at one point the ears are vertical and your hammer swing will be sideways
I just became a dealer for a quality, 24 inch, 250 ft/lb, 1/2 drive, ratcheted, reversible torque wrench with a life time warranty that I will sell for $48.00 USD plus shipping. I'll know tomorrow what the shipping will be to the UK.

Sarto
Attachments
DSC00021.JPG and
For those who use both sizes, this is the only parts that are needed. Remember the grey ring will be loose for easy changes.
DSC00022.JPG and
This is what I will use to compression lock the grey piece into the tool if used only for the 42MM size spinners and add the chrome nut
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PostPost by: seaandmoor » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:48 pm

Hi Terry,
You say your wheels are the same as Mark. Mark's are also the same as mine and the thrust ring IS RECESSED as the top surface of the ring is flush with the top face of the spokes on the alloys.
The rings on ebay are from South West Lotus and they are the same size/shape as we all have already except they are a very early alloy.

I've got extra rings here as I once thought it might be possible to fit one ring on top of another to space the spinner away from the spokes but it doesn't fit.

THE SOLUTION IS:

I looked at the possibility of laser copying the existing thrust washer and then CNC machining new thrust washers but with an additional 10mm added to the front face of the washer (it would look very similar to the ring that goes onto the centre of the Panasports)
... cost for a production run of four about ?200 ! !

Someone really needs to produce four times as many of these as the number of tools that Sarto produces so that the cost comes down to the same level as the existing thrust washers which is about ?10 for a set of four.

As with many cases such as this, photographs (sorry - digital images) are of limited use here but if we could all just get together I'm sure a solution would come out of it. Whether it is affordable is another question.

Regards to all on this thread.
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PostPost by: seaandmoor » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:06 pm

Hi Sarto,

My how life moves on in such a short space of time!

Just a quick point to check.

Most of the old Dunlop alloys had a rim profile which made it difficult to change tyres and many are now in poor condition.

Like many owners, I've changed mine to new identical looking spoked alloys but the profile inside the well is different so that it makes tyre fitting easier and less likelihood of rolling off the rim. (As told to me by Lotus)

The one that you have bought off ebay is an old alloy thrust washer.
The new ones are matching black powder coated steel.

The point I'm making is (and I don't know for sure) but there may be minor differences between the two thrust washers.

You have done a lot for me and others on this forum which is enormously appreciated so if you would like to remind me of your address and I'll post you one of the latest thrust washers so you can compare both and see if there is any difference first before you spend time and money in this direction.

Very best regards,
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:49 am

Hi seaanmoor, i appreciate your comments.

I have learned more about the Lotus alloys In the last few days, and maybe I'll be able to develop something for both early and the newer versions.
Thanks for the offer to send one of your thrust rings.
My address is on my web site. http://knockoffspinnertool.com/home

On the two eared types, 42MM & 52MM, I don't need to have 2 different tools to fit the different sizes, just add the pieces to be used for either size. A dealer in the UK would not have to order as many. Shipping cost can be reduced.

thanks again, Sarto
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PostPost by: seaandmoor » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:02 pm

Ok - leave it with me... away for a loooong weekend but will post it to you on Monday 27th
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:32 pm

Hi all, I wanted to get back to those that in the past had trouble locating a torque wrench with following features. It is a 24 ", 250 ft/lb, reversible, ratcheted, 1/2 " drive for $48.00 and that is not a special sale price, its the deal I was able to get as a fixed price. Here is a copy of an earlier post

I just became a dealer for a quality, 24 inch, 250 ft/lb, 1/2 drive, ratcheted, reversible torque wrench with a life time warranty that I will sell for $48.00 USD plus shipping. I'll know tomorrow what the shipping will be to the UK.


I finally got the shipping cost to the UK. One is $45.00 and for two its $60.00. So if any one wants to double up to save and share on shipping----
I can't believe how much shipping is to you guys, ALL MOST AS MUCH AS THE TOOL.
$48.00 USD 29.25 GPB torque wrench
$45.00 USD 27.42 GPB shipping to UK
$10.0 to $12.00 in the states
Total to the UK 56.67 GPB
If two can be bought, shipping would be 18.28 each if shipped together.
Not knowing your pricing in the UK for an equal torque wrench, I may not have much of a deal for you.
If you are purchasing a two eared knock off tool that comes with a socket and a extendable breaker bar and want to get the torque wrench I will send the new 1", 12 point, 1/2 " drive socket and not the breaker bar, you can knock off $10.00 USD on the two eared knockoff spinner tool, your option.
It is not the savings I was hoping for but it is available.
Attached is a photo of a happy MG owner, with the torque wrench.
I'm working on a thicker thrust ring and will fit it on both old and new type alloys, to see if it will work.
-Sarto
Attachments
DSCN1513.JPG and
The torque wrench is drop shipped from the supplier in the mid west US.
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:26 pm

Sarto et al:

A question regarding the thrust rings. Does anyone know if these are required for either the Panasport or (more importantly to me) the Minilite alloys?

I have new 5 1/2" Minilites for my Plus 2. I have attached a couple of photos below of the profile of the centre hole and "Nader nut". The wheels appear to have an inserted hub of different material than the alloy spokes. Is the ring required to better match the profile of the attachment spinner to the wheel hole?

Note I have the "Nader nut" octagon attaching nut, not the spinners being discussed, so do not require the specialized tool to install them. I am assuming the profile of the Nader nut (conical bevel where it attaches to the wheel) is the same as the spinners; let me know if I am mistaken. The wheel profile appears to be a rounded shoulder, which looks similar to the Lotus alloys?
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Mini-Lite with Nader Nut.jpg and
Mini-Lite without Nader Nut.jpg and
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PostPost by: JJDraper » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:48 pm

I too have a set of the 14" Minilites via Spyder for my +2. The centre ring as supplied by Spyder is a Stainless insert or thrust ring as described previously and is vital to protect the alloys. As far as I can see you have the correct set up, although I have Spinners not the Octagon nuts. I presume these have the same conical contact ground as Spinners, although if anyone knows any different, please shout out!

Jeremy
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:42 pm

Jeremy:

Thanks for the quick reply. Want to make sure I have it clear on a couple of points.

Mine are 13" diameter Minilite's rather than 14". I got them through a US supplier, although they are sourced from the UK. I see the spoke pattern is a bit different than yours. I am assuming we have the same rounded profile in the wheel centre with both models, but can't see the hole centre in your excellent pic as it is covered by the thrusts ring. I am assuming your's are as per the Spyder site pic below? If so, they appear to have the same wheel centre profile as mine, and I had best order up a set of rings from Andy. 20/20 hindsight I would have preferred Andy's 14" wheels due to difficulty in sourcing correctly sized 13" dia. modern tires in Canada, but I had unfortunately bought the 13's before I knew I needed a new Spyder frame! :(

When folks describe "protecting the alloys" with the thrust ring, I think I was misunderstanding a bit, but want to make sure I have it right. Is the ring required to protect the wheel hole area from the beveled flat profile of the attachment nut/spinner? I had assumed this was not an issue with my Minilite's as they did not supply thrust rings with them and the hole is a different material from the alloy spokes. I was thinking folks meant the rings protected the wheel finish from glancing blows of the spinner hammer. I don't have this issue with the Nader nuts as an octagon wrench is readily available for nut attachment and tightening.

At risk of answering my own question, but here are some snips from the supplier sites; I can't find similar confirmation regarding my specific Minilite.

For reference, here is Spyder's description of their offering:

The Minilite-pattern wheel is machined specifically to suit the layout of the five peg drive, knock-on Elan hub and is available in 14" x 6J. The wheels are supplied complete with tapered lock rings to suit the original spinners. A 14" X 6J bolt-on version is also available for the Europa.


Here is the Panasport description from the RD Enterprises site with my emphasis added:

Panasport Alloy Wheels
13" x 5" wheels for Lotus Elan knock-on hubs
These specially-made wheels are drilled for the drive pegs and utilize a stainless steel center ring as the bearing surface for the KO nut. They are only made in one size - 13" x 5" - and will fit on any series Elan provided that the proper size tires are mounted (155 or 165 section max). These wheels can also be used on the Elan Plus 2.
28mm offset (@ 4" back space); weight @ 11.25 lb.
Attachments
CB-PG7_WHEELS_3.jpg and
Spyder 14" Minilite
Octagonal wheel wrench from RD Enterprises.jpg
Octagonal wheel wrench from RD Enterprises.jpg (31.36 KiB) Viewed 2409 times
Panasport 13 x 5 wheels from RD Enterprises.jpg
Pic from Spyder site of their Minilite
Panasport 13 x 5 wheels from RD Enterprises.jpg (32.63 KiB) Viewed 2408 times
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PostPost by: JJDraper » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:21 pm

Mine are exactly as per the pics on the Spyder website. It is a little difficult to see exactly what the 'inserted hub of a different material' you refer to is, other than the rings fitted to my wheels. The rings are pretty small and it looks like your wheels have something similar already fitted. My car is currently in the paintshop having the roof made more 'Bling', so I cannot get a better photo of the wheels.. You can just see the ring between the spinner and the alloy wheel in my last picture.

I presume the purpose of the ring is to reduce the possibility of a crack in the alloy being initiated by the thrust of the centre wheel fastener. Has any one had this type of failures? My old (Lotus) alloys did not have any thrust rings and I was not aware of their existence until a number of previous threads on this matter, so didn't worry about it! The new Minilites came with the rings from Spyder, who insisted that they were needed. I'm just a punter so didn't argue....

Jeremy

PS I bought one of Sarto's spinner tools, which works well so far (I haven't tightened the wheels in anger yet!)
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PostPost by: mac5777 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:14 am

Hi Jeremy, Here is a picture of my Panasoports from Ray at RDenterprises. They come with the stainless centers built in. I like the three eared version better than the Nader nuts. The tool to tighten them is cheaper but there is no way of controlling the torque and you still get metal to metal contact in the Nader nut. Some one in the US saw too many James Bond movies and thought the three eared spinners might tear up some car passing by. I would assume that the other wheel Stu posted also has the harden centers built in.

Sarto

Stu, the first photo you posted looks like there is a center piece built in but I can not tell how thick it might be. Has anyone used my tool on that type wheel? I have not seen that design with the circle ridge around the center before.
Attachments
DSC00126.JPG and
DSC00001.JPG and
From RD Enterprises and they run true out of the box.
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PostPost by: stugilmour » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:21 am

Thanks Sarto.

The second photo of your Panasport`s clearly shows the flat beveled profile on the hardened centre. I could not see this on the RD site photo. This would mate perfectly with my Nader nut profile, and I assume this is the purpose of placing a thrust ring in the Minilites.

The first photo clearly shows the integrated hardened centre proud of the alloy wheel centre. I can see this now on the RD photo. This is less of an issue with Nader nuts for sure, but should not effect anything.

You are absolutely correct about the Nader nuts. Wrench use has scuffed up the chrome. The RD bar wrench is a big improvement over the stock stubby handled affair that you beat with a hammer, undoubtedly bashing the wheels just like with the spinners.

I think you are correct that mine have hardened centres as well, but they have the incorrect profile to mate with the bevel of the retaining nut. I think they will require the thrust rings like the Spyder supplied ones to present a proper profile to the nut or spinner. Other posts indicated having the wrong profile will put more stress on the pegs, ovaling the peg holes in the alloy. This seems to make sense to me now.

If someone could confirm their Spyder supplied Minilite`s have the rounded profile on the hardened centre insert in the wheel it would be great. Contact with Spyder from Canada can be kind of hit and miss.

Thanks for the help.
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PostPost by: seaandmoor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:21 pm

Goodevening Sarto, (early afternoon I guess for you)

Just to let you know that I've to-day posted to you the metal thrust ring for the current spoked alloys which most of us have over here to compare with the old one you bought off fleabay.

One idea would be to produce something like the ring for the Panasports which is raised proud of the surface of the wheel thereby 'spacing' the spinner (and the tool) further away from the spokes. The next thing is... you are going to ask me for one of the spoked alloys!!

Lets us know what you think.
G'night,
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